Knowing a signer is being untruthful

Well put, I usually use the term ‘sticking your nose in where it doesn’t belong’, but I like ‘imposing’ better. I’ve read several posts where “GOODY TWO SHOES” notaries think they have a right/duty to IMPOSE theirself into situations where they don’t belong. One scenario I can think of is this: "Notary imposes theirself into something they should not have, by informing title who stops the process, the borrower now loses out on a rate guarantee and after it is determine that the borrower did nothing wrong, the borrower now has to pay more money for the loan and sues the Notary. DOES ANYONE THINK E&O INSURANCE WILL COVER THIS NOTARY WHO STUCK THEIR NOSE INTO SOMETHING THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE?

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I would realize my job is to certify signatures snd do what I came to do and once signing complete just mentioned it to LO. That’s all you can do

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Blockquote
“The notary signing agent steps into the role of the title agent due to distance”.
Where is this written? Don’t title agents have to be certified for that position? I have never heard of such and I couldn’t find anything to corroborate it. I even looked in the knowledge base of the NNA. Pretty much everywhere I looked all websites and SOSs were very prescriptive about the role of the NSA.

  • We take delivery of and print loan documents

  • We verify the identity of the signer

  • We guide the signers through the documents to obtain their signatures, getting clarity from title or lender where needed.

  • We notarize those documents requiring such certification.

  • We return those executed documents to title/lender at the earliest opportunity.
    We do not act in any other role or capacity of any other professional! With the availability of cell phones and the internet there is no such thing as the burden of distance. While you may have this expectation of notaries with whom you work, you should be able to provide a statute or guideline that states this in writing. I am anxious to see it. Please post.

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I agree with Tisino - a notary signing agent does not step into the role of title rep just by virtue of distance - UNLESS, as in MN, you’re a licensed closer, or in a TPL-required state - those folks may have the authority to wear those shoes - other than that, any other NSA does not.

Will also take exception to this statement - "If you hear someone say they are unemployed when that document comes up, just ask & find out why. "

Not our place to ask these questions or grill the signers as to “why”.- at the point someone says that, our only duty is to contact title or LO or SS and let signers discuss it with them. IMO if a signing agent is prohibited from answering the “why” question about the docs, they also should not be asking the “why” either.

Other than that, @iverson I appreciated your post and incite.

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In Texas the borrower needs to sign a Notice of Penalties for Providing False or Misleading Information that has to be notarized. You can just complete the signing and then contact your SS with any concerns that you have. It is up to them to determine how to proceed.

Ha, just had one where I called the borrower to confirm the closing. He was Hispanic and seemed (over the phone to know enough English but) I was still concerned. I called the title company numerous times to report my concern. I never received a call back or was able to speak to anyone about it so I sent a couple emails. Still no response. I drove to the location and no one answered the door so I called him. He said he was in bed and would be at the door in 5 minutes. Here he comes racing up in his truck??? Lets me in, we sit down, I look at his ID and it is an address in IL and it was JUST renewed. Now out comes a translator. The lender had his name incorrect which gave me an easy out.
So, I report I was unable to close. NOW I receive a return call. NOW they are concerned. I told them of my experience and all of the red flags. He was refinancing as an Owner Occupant! It was my opinion he was not an Owner Occupant and on top of that he needed a translator. The person I spoke with agreed. You would think someone would look into the red flags? NOPE! I told him I was not interested in closing this loan for the above reasons and that they needed to find a bi-lingual notary. Minutes later, and I mean minutes the signing is sent out by text to be accepted by another notary. At this point I may have to argue to be paid. Here is the lesson. Don’t put your E&O on the line. It could cost you big. Walk.

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That’s the way it is! Thanks Tisino for today’s lesson!

This is right and wrong, perhaps semantics… but
Let’s keep simple:
Notary responsibility:
1)Verify identity of signer with satisfactory evidence…
2) Complete notary certificates correctly
3) Take oaths or affirmations
4) record journal entries and collect thumbprints when required/appropriate
Notary Signing Agents:

  1. same as above
  2. print 2 copies of loan documents, escrow and title documents; one to sign, one to leave with signers, no matter the page count or perceived redundancy; but firs look for any obvious or perceived discrepancies in names/dates/addresses and discuss these with your SS before the signing.
  3. provide verbal limited “descriptions” of the presented documents to signer
  4. verify signing and dating of documents correctly per lender/SS/title instructions - point out where documents are to be signed, initialed, dated
  5. return signed copies with any requested accessory documents to SS or title per SS instruction
  6. get paid for this work

Now for Neither Notary or NSA responsibility:(you don’t get paid for this)

  1. Do not Explain the documents (unauthorized practice or law; unlicensed practice of loan origination). you don’t get paid for this and risk your commission if you do
  2. Do not try to process or underwrite the file. you don’t get paid for this and risk your commission if you do
  3. Do not interrogate the signer(s). you don’t get paid for this and risk your commission if you do
  4. Do not assume or interpret signer’ casual or inquisitive comments in a manner to be drawn into conversations resulting in explaining the documents or rendering opinions of good lender, good rate, acceptable accessory documents. you don’t get paid for this and risk your commission if you do.
  5. Do not read verbatim the documents presented, in a manner to act as interviewer, explainer, loan officer, escrow or title officer, underwriter verifying the information - I repeat, you are not paid for this and you risk your commission if you do.
    It is the responsibility of the signer to perform honestly and perform their own due diligence. It is not your responsibility to be private investigator/police. The only thing you need to be concerned about the signer’s integrity is their ability to satisfactory evidence of legal identification, and be confident they are not under duress and seem competent to sign… This is what you get paid for and need to be expert at. If you want to be an LO, processor, underwriter, esrow
    If a client answers a question “yes” , by writing yes on a form about income, liabilities, that would stop the transaction per instruction from the lender/title, and you see that they “wrote” yes, then stop, consider your personal safety in the situation, and call the SS if prudent , but it is not your responsibility to interview/ask the signer to get a verbal “yes” to employment/liability questions…you are not an interviewer…not a loan officer, not a funder, not a compliance auditor…trust me, these folks get paid a **** of a lot more for that job, so let them do their job and let’s all just try to hold off giving our services away for low ball prices.
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Let’s agree to disagree, Bruce. And, I am only referring to your #1. It is the notary’s responsibility to explain what a document is. NO, we do not engage in any way to explain the contents of the loan documents. But, on the CD for example, you are supposed to know and explain to the borrower that “this document has the same information as the settlement statement broken down by category”. And if they want to know the interest rate or the monthly payment we are supposed to be able to show them where to find that information in the CD (not tell them). Likewise, the Uniform Residential Loan Application, know and explain the Notice of Right to Cancel (transaction date, cancel by date), the sharing of negative information form, etc. Every notary agent instruction document I have ever read tells us to be prepared to do this. They do not want us to point and have the borrower sign. And, these simple explanations of the purpose of a form is not considered the practice of law.

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Your statement, “We are also there to explain the documents, make sure the borrower understands the documents…” is considered practicing of law in Texas, and is illegal unless the SA is in fact licensed to practice law in Texas.

A Texas notary cannot act in the capacity of a Title Officer unless they are licensed Title Agents. In Texas this would violate the Deceptive Trade Practices Act.

The Notary’s responsibility is to prevent Identity Fraud. Our role is not to prevent fraud committed by a borrower regarding the material facts in the closing documents. We can, as a courtesy, notify the Lender/Title of our suspicions so they can follow up with verification processes and procedures.

Perhaps Texas is different. But, I think it does not necessarily set the standard. For the Industry there were a set of standards that were adopted specifically regarding loan signings by a group referred to as the Signing Professionals Working Group (SPW) to which the NNA refers for NSA guidelines. This group was formed and its platform was adopted by the federal government in 2013. Section 5 provides the language to be used when we “walk the signer through the loan documents”, which I regularly use when signing a borrower. I wonder if they and the NNA know that this would be considered the practice of law in Texas?

Walking the signers through a document package is different than “explain[ing] the documents, make sure the borrower understands the documents”. Showing a signer where to find information, where to sign, and how to date falls under walking them through the process. It’s the ‘explaining’ that crosses the line.

The Federal Government’s acceptance of the SPW guidelines, doesn’t supercede State’s Rights to regulate it’s Notaries.

Okay. TEXAS, I know.

I agree with you totally

My “why” was misconstrued and got lost in the type. I didn’t mean we should ask why they are unemployed. If the borrower comments about not wanting to sign the form because it says they are employed and they indicate they aren’t…at that point you have a document that needs to be signed and they say they can’t sign it. My scenario as mentioned was that the lender may have qualified a couple but only used income for one. The lender still expects both borrowers to sign that document and that may confuse the borrower. They might assume they are stating they have a job by signing that document when in truth they are stating there is no change in their staus between application and closing. My suggestion is you can ask why they are concerned about signing the form and if it’s just a misunderstanding of the document, you can call the signing company right there so they can get it explained.

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I found something interesting from quite some time ago on Notary Rotary. She gives an interesting take on this & I’ve heard about people trying to create lawsuits like this so hmmmmm

Reply on 10/13/09 8:10am
Msg #307131

Have to add to my last post …

A borrower who isn’t savvy enough to keep his secrets to himself, is also likely to either send YOU under the bus, or could potentially be setting you up for what he might think is his ‘ticket’ to a lawsuit.

When I sat in the post-close-audit chair, and would discover these (they happen a lot, sadly), my first call was to the Title Agent who was bound by the Closing Instructions and the CPL to close under the written guidelines. Woe to the bank account of the closing agent who colluded. It’s quite easy for borrowers to get through the employment verifications fraudulently - but to tell a closing agent and get through? Not likely.

In reading these, I’ve learned that we are all governed by different rules according to our states. It doesn’t seem like a good idea for us to share and advise each other or the new notaries asking for advice. What’s correct for me in my states can be very wrong for someone in another state.

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True - and this is why a few of us have consistently asked posters to PLEASE let us know what state you’re in when posting - it helps us answer accurately And due to my own preaching for this I had my forum alias changed to reflect my state (as I realized I was asking everyone to state where they’re from but I wasn’t doing it! LOL).

It is incredibly helpful to know where folks are from as, yes, rules, laws and regulations differ from state to state.

You’re an extension of the title company, the lender and also the signing service! It is always your job to report any information, if you see a home that has not been fully repaired or still going through construction because they have to sign the Affidavits and you’re a notary working for the state. It is your job to get the truth especially having to conduct an oath.

If that was the case a number of notaries would have been indicted during the predatory lending scandal of the early 2000s. Those loan packets were notarized as well, but the indictments and convictions of those responsible did not travel that far down the chain link! Cooperation, collaboration and participation is not the same as extension. A quick look on Dictionary.com will provide an definition of the difference between each term.

This is interesting. So, what about all those signings that take place at Starbucks or someplace other than the refinancing property? Also, what about those loans that are for second or investment properties located in other states or counties than the borrower’s primary residence? This lends itself to disproportionality in the way that different signers are being treated. Just because you don’t see something doesn’t mean that it isn’t happening. And just because you do see something doesn’t mean it is what you think it is.

Is it really?! It is our job to administer the oath and secure the signature. Those two things have little to do with the truthfulness of the signer. I personally recognize that I have no ability to exert that kind of control over the borrower or the situation. But, perhaps others have methods within their notary arsenal to which I am not privvy. If you can reference a guideline I’d be grateful if you would post that information.

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