I’m getting a lot of requests from the “children” of signers who want me to notarize a POA for Property for their Mom or Dad.
I really don’t like doing these as many times, they’ve waited too long to get Mom and Dad to sign a POA.
Even if/when Mom or Dad are communicative …
… I’m thinking about having these “children” provide me with evidence that they are related to the Signer.
I’m also considering that I will not notarize a POA unless the Agent to be appointed
(a) is present when the signer signs the POA and
(b) can prove to me that she/he is the son or daughter of the signer.
If you want to play lawyer with signers (which I do realize, and respect, that you’re an attorney) - IMO that’s a whole different realm from doing notary work. IMHO to do this would be a complete overreach of your notarial authority.
In my situation, I have no choice but to “play” lawyer.
BUT I’m asking as a Notary, would you notarize a Power of Attorney for Property for a 95 year old man, after a non relative (a) called you for the appointment and (b) the non relative will be the POA Agent?
Yes the 95 year old man is coherent and states (a) I know what I am signing and (b) I chose JOHN SMITH to be my Agent … is that within your rules to notarize?
What if the 95 year old man then tells you he met JOHN SMITH yesterday for the first time? Still OK for you?
I have had many POA signings. Remember you are in control of the situation if at any time you feel the situation has issues. I have walked away from POA signings in private residences, hospitals and full care facilities that are age or disability related. You have the right to say NO and note in your Notary Log. At times there are extenuating circumstances. Example: senior lady with crippled hands and no living relatives. She had a friend for 20 years helping her and finally lady had to be put into full care facility. The younger lady made her clothing, fixed her hair, did her nails, helped her get WA ID card. Older lady very active brain cells but needed someone to assist with her small monthly financial arrangements. They were more like Mom and daughter relationship. I placed ID for both in my notary log. Some times just need to go with your gut.
That’s my problem.
I’m getting tired of showing up and
(a) the signer is not quite as “together/coherent” as the caller led me believe and/or
(b) the signer seems to be learning for the first time that the POA will give their Agent control over their money.
In the end, appointments for notarizing a POA involve so much more risk and are much more likely to be a waste of time.
Feel your pain about people not having act together for POAs. Fortunately I only had a few of these calls and rest of people well organized. Created my FAQs page and also use as my website which explains in detail services and how to be prepared for signings. No longer receive calls from disorganized peoples. I also use this as my cheat sheet when people call and ask questions regarding POAs. After 2 recent deaths in family and extended family, shared FAQ sheet and has traveled to 200 extended families. Getting the word out there.
I’m sorry Mr Votruba - I just saw this. For me, yes, if I’m sure the signer is coherent and of sound mind (not “out there” as you described in a subsequent post) then it is okay for me to notarize.
I was a paralegal for 40 years - and I drove my bosses nuts with my “what if” questions (I could never work in criminal law unless it was for the prosecution…lol) However, “what if” doesn’t enter the picture here. As long as the signer seems mentally capable and not being coerced or signing under duress, we can notarize, as can most notaries.
I, too, have walked out on POA appointments where I was assured in advance that all was in order and signer was okay only to find out (a) ID was no good after all; or (b) signer was not capable - one instance the signer couldn’t stay awake to even answer a few questions; in another (contacted by a non-family member, a neighbor)- I spoke with signer prior to signing and he was on board. Had everyone come into room and I repeated question “and You want XXX to be your attorney-in-fact” and pointed to the proposed agent - signer looked at him, looked back at me and said “I have no idea who that is”. Signing over.
IMO in your situations - if you’re notarizing AND acting as their attorney, that’s one thing. But if you’re just contacted as a notary for GNW work you’re wearing a totally different hat and you DO have a choice not to play lawyer as they are not your client- it’s an unclear gray area but that’s my opinion on it - what if, in the future, your decision as a lawyer was called into question because claimants state they just contacted you to notarize, not legally represent them? What if??
These gray areas are what I used to explore as a financial crimes investigator. Notaries must make an effort to determine the coherence of the signer while not crossing the line as a medical practitioner. You have to reply on what a ‘reasonable person would do’. If you have an inkling, hint, intuition the signer is not fully aware of what they’re signing, then don’t complete the Notarization.
When I was investigating fraudulent or forged signing as long as the Notary followed state law I didn’t refer them to DA’s office for criminal charges. That’s the criminal side of the equation. You, the Notary, can face a civil lawsuit because Notaries are seen as an easy target. This is why you need to keep detailed and copious notes regarding the engagement. Note the place and time, including the room room number if it’s at a facility. Ask for the name of the nurse manager on duty and ask them if your signer is lucid and alert enough to sign a contract. If not, do not complete the notarization. When in doubt, decline as your reputation is on the line. Notaries are seen as easy targets because many do not keep complete notes of their engagements.
I have refused engagements in order to stay in the clear. Again keep those notes as to why you didn’t perform your duties in case you’re accused of discriminatory practices.
POAs are the bread and butter of general notary work so if you’re transitioning from mortgages, welcome to the real world of the Mobile Notary. “It’s like a box of chocolates, you never know what you’re going to get.” Even the most thoroughly qualified signers will surprise you. For example, after finishing his breakfast, I handed the signer my pen and while he was busy signing my journal the took a deep breath and DIED. I had to pry my pen from his hand! And yes he was fully aware right up to the last second.
And remove my journal from his lap. By the way, I had already fingerprinted him. Just another day in the life of the mobile notary. I’ve been driving around San Diego county for over twenty years starting with a yellow page ad.
Widower in his mid-60s going in for heart surgery the next day and wanted POA signed at his home. Finished the job and he said “I think I’m having a heart attack. Please call 911.” Did that and waited with him 20 minutes for ambulance to arrive.
Then a few more minutes for the EMTs to get him on the ambulance (which was blocking me from leaving). As a result, I was late for my next appointment and got a royal chewing out from hiring party despite the fact that (while waiting for ambulance to get out of my way), I called signer and told them I’d be late and why.
Signer was OK with why I was late; hiring party wasn’t.
Morning Joe ~ nice to know you are in San Diego when comparing notes. WA State does not have to fingerprint. Weird stuff happens in every state. Thanks for sharing.
Arichter you did the right thing helping person having heart attack. Hiring agent was an unethical bully and Karma shall strike one day. We have to all stand in our own truth in life. My deepest respects to you.
I have been hesitant to share my FAQ sheet because this could vary by state. Easy to find ~ Google Search: Alice Hart Notary Bonney Lake WA. My simple Google page consists of FAQ sheet. People have found me a lot locally with this Google search. No fancy website page just the facts. In this modern world tendancy to overthink the process. Lot of people that find me like the simplicity and factual explanation. Had 3 signings last week courtesy of this simple page and not just POAs ~ also small business signings.
