Today at 6:30 pm, I received a call from a title company requesting a RON closing at 7:30 pm. I accepted and tried to confirm the appointment but received a “mailbox is full” notification. At 7:32 pm, I reached the signer, who said she was with a patient and would log on soon. After completing the KBA and credential analysis, an older lady appeared on camera, but the posted driver’s license did not match. I asked her for verification, and the individual revealed her mother was in another room, unable to join due to age and hearing issues. The session was put on hold while I consulted with the hiring company. Upon further inquiry, the daughter claimed to have power of attorney without documentation being presented ahead of time. Attention to detail is crucial to avoid such potential problems in RON sessions. This was my first time for this experience, this was bordering on a commission of fraud.
I’m sorry that you had such an experience. Did the family member ever present the POA, and what was the hiring company response to all of this?
As a RON, I would have cancelled the session. It absolutely falls under the attempt at fraud category without the POA and the hiring company’s ok.
Thanks for your reply. The hiring company didn’t know about the situation, and they didn’t have power of attorney. They shut everything down and told the borrower’s daughter that the lender would get in touch with the borrower. The whole thing makes me wonder if this might be worth reporting to the authorities as elder abuse.
You had no proof of elder abuse, just idiot children who don’t understand the process.
@cfletcher It’s a good idea to Investigate the guidelines to increase your knowledge of the parameters that define and/or comprise elder abuse.
This effort will better prepare you for the decision-process of making a determination of whether (or not) to report the actions taken by the child(ren)/family members.
NOTE: In general, where there is “smoke” there could be fire . . .
Here is an Infographic that is helpful:
https://www.nia.nih.gov/health/elder-abuse/spotting-signs-elder-abuse
.
@cNsa5 thank you for sharing that information/link. Good article that cover signs of elder abuse, when we can physically observer visible signs. In my situation it can be hard to evaluate during remote online meetings. In this situation, the borrower/mother wasn’t present during the RON session. The facts available was the daughter was the only party present online, secondly daughter mostly used the mother’s driver license to complete the credential analysis and KBA. When I asked the daughter to hold up the driver’s license to the camera, she again displayed the mother’s I.D. Those are red flags, but not enough to report elder abuse. But it was enough potential signs for fraud and reason to notify the hiring company and not to proceed with the RON session. Now it’s on the financial institution fraud department to determine how to proceed. As the RON LSA, I did my job correctly, by stopping and reporting things to hiring company. I cannot claim of being an expert in this area, but I have been through various trainings on this subject matter. Just sharing my RON experience and hopefully it can help someone in our field.
@johnsonps306, you recall I stated “The whole thing makes me wonder if this might be worth reporting to the authorities as elder abuse”. Well, it’s not that we actually need “proof” like you’re saying. We aren’t here to make those judgments, anyway. We don’t decide the “adult daughter”, who is old enough to know “right from wrong” of her actions. That’s up to the authorities. For us, our job is just to watch out for the signs of fraud or elder abuse. We’re supposed to be trained Public Officials to detect fraud and prevent scams. This includes looking out for potential abuse of the elderly and there are laws in most states that protect people age 60 and over from that kind of thing. Most of the time, this comes from family members, friends, or caregivers that people trust. We’re not in charge of snooping around for proof. We have to be vigilant and seek out up to date education to enhance our knowledge in these areas. We can be held financial or criminally liable in these matters.
You can blackball signing companies who in turn can blackball you. And someone also indicated the entire platform can suspend you. So there’s that.
There are times when you have to make a decision on where your loyalty lies. If a notary suspects elder abuse (which includes extortion/financial abuse), there’s no question the loyalty should be 100% with the victim. Under the current circumstances, notifying title of the issue was a good move. My spidey sense would be triggered when the daughter refused to show her own ID and kept showing Mom’s ID.
I think @cfletcher did the right thing. Let the companies and platforms blackball me - my duty, IMO, is to the potential victim.
There’s also a possibility of being sued for slander or false accusations. And bigger than being blackballed is having the state receive complaints about conduct that could result in a suspension of a commission. There are two sides to every coin. I tend to be cautious on such issues.
@cfletcher Concur 
percent!
We all need to be aware of the signs of elder financial abuse. When we observe such an occurrence, report it to the hiring company or appropriate authorities. They can determine if an investigation(s) is needed. In the scenario I was involved, the daughter present the Mother’s driver license as proof of identification. At that point, I was under the impression that I was dealing with the actual borrower. Until I notice the I.D did not match the person appearing on the screen. She fail to clarify upfront that she was working on behalf of her mother. Secondly, upon repeatedly asking her questions, she elected not to respond until I stated to the representative that she could hear me. In this forum we share our experiences to help, vent, or enlighten others. As for "slander or false accusation, I only described a true event, which a representative from the hiring company was listening to the interaction. Of course I will most likely never know the outcome of hat assignment.
I see your point. I’m also saying people should demonstrate caution if they don’t have experience with PoA activity with elderly people. I’ve signed with people in their 90’s, I signed with a blind 99 year old. I did a reverse application with a man in his 80’s and the wife was 96 but she wasn’t all there and she kept saying what am I signing what am I signing why can’t I read this and the worst Do we have to move? Are they taking our house? And the husband got crappy telling her yes dear we have to be out by morning and I got irritated and said please don’t say that to her. Because it was mean. She was lost as a golfball in high weeds.
So I called the title company and said I can’t notarize that woman’s signature if the loan goes through, please contact the husband and have him get a PofA because I won’t notarize her signature She has no idea what she’s doing.
Usually a company will ask you to do the loan if you do the application and the signer requests you, but when it came through ten days later I called and the guy didn’t have a power of attorney in place so I told the title guy I wouldn’t handle it. Was he abusing her? Not really but he was being an ass.
Elder abuse is a law with very explicit applications. Be extremely careful using the term in the execution of your duties (remember, you are an officer representing the state you’re comissioned in and you’re not permitted to practice law, including offering a “legal” opinion). What most people construe as “elder abuse” may look like it, but it’s actually just fraud. There is a profound difference between fraudulent activity and elder abuse and as notaries, we’re not trained, equipped or authorized to assert which one applies. Best to just report the facts as you see them to the consumer protection agency in your state and let them handle it. Use the words “appears to be” when you describe the situation.
Hope this helps.
@Bobby-CA - Being aware of elder abuse signs is not practicing law. In Florida, we must adhere to “Mandatory Reporting Requirements: The Elderly Florida”. Notary Publics are subject to Florida Consumer Finance Laws (chapter 517). Key points include:
• Failing to report known or suspected abuse, neglect, or exploitation of a vulnerable adult is a second-degree misdemeanor.
• Making a false report or advising another to do so is a third-degree felony unless done in good faith.
Sharing this information for educational purposes does not constitute legal advice. Added: These type of discussions inspire me to research, thereby building my knowledge about our profession.
Fletch,
I was referring more to a notary implying/asserting/accusing/etc. (choose the one that applies) that elder abuse may be afoot. One should avoid using the term “elder abuse” and rather, report suspicions of it to the proper authorities. My apologies if my missive was misleading. And good for you to do the research. We all benefit when active discussions of a positive nature populate this forum.
Im not A RON NOTARY for this reason ..fraud is too easy..imo
U did the smart RIGHT THING. No POA? ..NO ID ..
STOP
REPORT TO SIGNING COMPANY FULL DETAILS
There is also the side of the coin that you as a notary can lose your commission for failure to report fraud. I know in the 3 states that I have been commissioned in, that is a very quick way to be de-certified.
It may not be elder abuse, but sure stinks of fraud. It is not unusual for children and even caregivers to do this. Defintely dont participate.