What is the average fee for a Refinance?

@Arichter Much gratitude for your note. :partying_face: :love_letter:

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There’s always much to be learned by utilizing simple observation & learning vicariously while simultaneously deftly avoiding the dreadful pain of directly making a costly mistake. That’s why so many of us business owners take the time to share our direct experiences.

Some refer to this education as a degree from the University of SHK [School of Hard Knocks].

The bulk of my experience & edification originated from the University of SHK; however, the essential & most valuable training, education, certification, & development of insights stemmed from my years at the University of Texas as Austin (graduated in '96) as a non-traditional student => simply meaning “older than average.”

The reason I refer to it as the valuable component is that it was at that juncture that I was able to think critically, gain a vantage point at 30,000 feet, and implement depth perception on a scenario strategically. It also helped to have achieved my international certification as a Project Management Professional. Talk about ticky-dot-detail requirements! PMI wrote the official book [PM-BOK] on that for PMPs. So, the credit and/or blame can from at least a 30% standpoint be attributed there . . .

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I do endeavor to share as much helpful information/data as possible. As a fellow business owner, I often have little time to donate on the forum . . . but I give it my best when time is available!

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Again, @Arichter Thank You for your Acknowledgement/kudos. As you’re already aware, I appreciate & admire your contributions greatly!

:swan:

$150 with scans. In most cases anything less like seller closing at least $100. For my time and expenses I normally don’t accept anything less than $100.

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ROI - return on investment

Thats great, Thanks for your response.

I live in a rural area with single lane roads and lots of people our county has over 1 million people
a RE FI was typically 150+pages and they wanted 2 copies
a very tedious package and you need to pay attention
.easy 60 +minutes to sign and then check before you leave add 20 minutes
now almost 90 minutes
I add for travel
both ways
scan backs?
add $25-50 depends on size of package
out here 30 miles can take 60 + minutes of travel each way… its the geography and traffic
that’s 2 hours to travel minimum no traffic…
90 min minimum at the home to sign and review
so Now 3 1/2 hours
back up…
u printed 2 copies a laser printer 15- 20 minutes NOW UR AT 4 HOURS
with 2 trays for legal and letter size paper
case of letter size paper is 45-65$
legal size is 65-85$ both for 10 reams toner is $106. staples ships and has sales as does amazon
I always prep the docs …“sign here stickers and notarize” stickers 5-10 $ for the packages of stickers
30-45 minutes for that on a 150 page re fi NOW AT 4 1/2 HOURS
OH SCAN BACKS set ur scanner printer to legal size 300 pixels
150 pages easy 20-30 minutes with e mails etc
NOW ur at 5 hours
Then travel back to drop docs( my UPS store and Fedex is 40 min round trip and close by 5 pm)
typically I tell title or whomever I will scan tonight and drop tomorrow unless its early enough to make the drop
almost 6 hours plus car expense wear and tear insurance gas clothes
etc
I want $200-300.
If i travel further I add travel expense.
dont forget if its closer i also reduce that fee.
i did 60 miles r/t at $325 for a HELOC with scans.

in my area certain packages are quick 25 45 minutes out the door , but it still takes me 3-4 hours r/t to drive
and scan is extra.
I include MY TIME
I was taught about $50 per hours
A re fi 15 minutes away 150 pages w scans I can take 125 they dont want to pay but i dont discount

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I figured out how much I made in 2022, deducted my expenses and divided. It takes me $55 per signing to pay my expenses. I need to consider my TIME so that is why I charge $100 for Refi’s (Average for my area. When I ask for more I get overlooked.) Occasionally I will accept $90- especially when it’s been a week between signings. (I’m in a lesser populated state than most others) $90 is better than nothing when I still have to pay expenses like Phone, Insurance, Internet, etc.
Marcy Tibero had a YOU TUBE video explaining fees and it was enlightening. She explained that with so many signing companies and fewer closings, a lot of the time these signing companies are also accepting lesser fees to get the work, so they offer less per signing.
It stinks because we are the ones in the trenches paying for gas, paper, ink and all the other costs of doing business. It seems it should be the opposite. We charge more, the signing companies charge more, the title companies charge more and the lender charges more=the signer pays more. These lenders are getting MORE interest, so they should be able to AFFORD to pay us more!

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Couldn’t agree more…they should be able to pay us better; they just don’t have to because there’s almost always someone who will take it at a loss. I know I’m comparing apples to oranges with the following–but it has ALWAYS struck me as a ‘does-not-compute-concept’ when the Lender will get back way more than we are paid with just the interest from the very first payment on any loan.

Just a suggestion – open a FedEx account & schedule pick ups at your house for your packages. The cost falls on the person paying for the label – not you.
I live rural also & have been doing this for 7 years with no complaints from anyone.

If I were doing loan signings I would try that…again…back in my day they would not pick up from me…nor am I guaranteed first .morning delivery either, even now.

$250? From a signing service or from a title company?
What state are you in?

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The title of this thread is what is the average fee for a refinance. If you are asking this question as a borrower the answer is $250. That’s the notary fee listed on the CD (closing disclosure).

By law the borrower has been reviewing this fee for 72 hours before the notary arrives. That’s been the notary fee for decades. The borrower has the option to reject the fee and hire his own notary.

Recently some title companies will try to discourage this because of signing service agreements. Excuses like “Fidelity approved” or NNA background checks for example.

The actual question should be what’s the average fee a notary will accept from a third party hiring agency. That answer is entirely up to the notary who may or may not understand what it cost them to preform this service.

If you are that notary it’s best to remember that the borrower/signer is paying (on average) $250 and may never know you sold yourself out for sixty bucks.

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OMG! Really!, I often look on the Alta Statements and see the fees and I know that we are being hired as a third party. I live in an attorney state. so we actually depend on signing services most of the time. ( I’m fairly new to the signing agent business). We just have to choose what we will accpect or not, however, I freakin tired of being low balled all over the place. I’m signing up for more siging services and maybe the offers will get better. Thanks for your time and your response.

I live in attorney state, SC. often use signing services to get signings. so I dont get much of a choice.

@trsss Tammy, you ALWAYS have a choice, within your state guidelines, as to what your fee is to do ANY notary work - you are a business and that is YOUR choice. YOU set your fees based on your own research, laws and demographics - not anyone else. NEVER let any SS or attorney or TC tell you what you should charge…set your fees and stick to it.

You’re a business owner…

@trsss I created a separate thread with this data for easy access.

Have you been able to create your own personalized List of Fees utilizing this guideline?

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Here is a guideline for those new to this business sector that is quite helpful to create an individualized List of Fees for professional services provided in our industry . . .

NOTE: Current IRS mileage rate is = 65.5 cents/mile

It would be in your best interest to jot down all of the expenses associated with performing the services you provide within your service region to determine a baseline operating cost. Then, at that point, you can calculate the fees that will generate a net profit to determine if you’ll have a Profit or sustain a Loss at that rate.

There are many items to consider within your Overhead calculations. Here are a few to get you started:
• telephone expenses including cell phone equipment and monthly service fees
• office equipment and furniture; i.e., work chair, work desk, reliable dual-tray printer, trustworthy scanner, etc.
• Notarial stamps for Jurats, Acknowledgements, Notarial Name, Commission Expiration, etc.
• rent and utilities
• paper
• toner
• binder clips
• pens (inexpensive for one-time use)
• stationery and supplies including stamps & envelopes
• travel costs to & from signer locations (i.e., create a generic by county list)
• travel costs to & from FedEx/UPS/USPS, etc. (i.e., choose your favorite location OR the closest that will provide you with a receipt)
• business insurance
• business-related meals and entertainment
• professional association memberships
• annual background checks
• annual certification expenses
• legal and accounting fees
• tax preparation fees
• advertising and marketing costs; i.e., Google ads, yellow pages ad, website, business cards, or brochure
• Protection equipment; i.e., COVID-19 masks, hand sanitizer, wipes, etc.

AND many more!

Your individual overhead would also include the cost of fringe benefits; i.e., medical insurance, disability insurance, retirement benefits. Also, remember to include quarterly income tax payment to federal & state (as appropriate) and self-employment taxes.

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If calculating all this accurately seems to be a bit overwhelming, reach out to your tax advisor and ask for guidance in this regard. :sparkles::yellow_heart:

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Also, there is an excellent specific cost breakdown by one business owner for services within her [ @anon78047977 ] region & for her overhead:

"Ok for a seasoned already in business Signing Agent (meaning no start up costs to factor in, just on going costs)

Average Refinance

  • 150 pages (300 when having to print 2 copies)
  • 35 miles average miles to signing/from signing/to FedEx drop
  • Print cost average .15 per page (Laser printer, standard paper. Note this is also the cost at Staples, FedEx Office in the area BUT I have actually calculated my real costs by dividing the number of pages I get from a toner kit, my drum kit, cost of paper etc. but I use this average of .15 because there are Notaries around who actually use outside printing)
  • IRS mileage .56 per mile [current rate is .655] (you can use actual costs of gas, insurance, plus maintenance costs. I will use the IRS rate because it’s a good average and I also have Tolls I have to pay which I will not add in this example. Also later I kind of use this amount as a “catch all” for other expenses. Again, I have determined my “actual” costs and the averages I use are pretty spot on.)
  • 2.25 hours an average total time spent which includes, confirming appt & reviewing instructions, printing/prepping docs, travel time to/from/to FedEx, signing/notarizing docs, scan back
  • Costs that people usually do not take into consideration because it’s part of their household BUT they are costs of running a business (home office expenses - internet, electric, computer, phone, supplies, etc.) Remember every business has similar expenses

So here we go…let’s look at average total for this signing:
$45 print costs
$19.60 mileage rate (So this number is based on IRS mileage rate. I use this number as a catch all to give me an estimate of my actual costs (gas, toll, %of annual maintenance, %of insurance and a % of home office costs, %of supplies, etc. Since I know my % for every business expenses, I already know this number is pretty close to my actual costs. For example my actual costs for this signing would be around $21)

It will cost me $64.60 for a 150 page refinance order. With no issues, no traffic, no reprints, no problems

If I took a $75 signing fee I would net $10.40
I would net roughly $4.62 per hour for a signing that took up 2.25 hours of my time.

$95 I would net $30.40 or $13.51 per hour
$125 I would net $60.40 or $26.84 per hour
$150 I would net $85.40 or $37.96 per hour

So when I advocate for SAs and fees I am not just coming up with number off the top of my head. I have done the math for myself personally."

SOURCE: Signing Agent Fee is Just Not a Notary Fee - #38 by anon78047977

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(Sorry for the cut and paste)
According to the National Notary Association, there are 4.4 million notaries in North America. The notary population is overwhelmingly female (some 84 percent), older (ages 46 to 65), and well-educated, with nearly two-thirds having a college degree. Traditionally, notaries are found in the real estate, legal, health care, and banking industries, and interestingly, of those who are self-employed, 54 percent have been self-employed for less than five years. NNA

Most of that list with the exception of those that were sold into the business by a promise of a six-figure income are not overly concerned with the profit margins. If it were, there wouldn’t be such a proliferation of hiring agencies. Just be honest for once “y’all”, Loan Signing is fun and a lot of you who are reading this message would do it for nothing or next to it because you already are.

Unless you are working directly churning out several a dozen signings a week this is nothing more than a side hustle.

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Wow, this is very impressive. Very detailed and on point. You’re awesome

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Are you able to market directly to the lawyers in your state?

Great advice as always

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