@csmallsnotary also keep in mind…you should do a business plan so you know each and every expense you have and how much you need to make…how far you will travel and a cost per mile ( the IRS rate is not your charge…just what you can deduct on your tax return). Know bow much a signing is going to cost you then add a profit margin that works for you.
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Your story and critique are interesting. However, I am simply asking for a fuller explanation of how to calculate loss on offers taken as a contract where you suggest separating out the “pieces” you would charge for if you were doing GNW. Two different endeavors. Since accounting is a function of calculating gains/losses between debits and credits, wouldn’t you then have to consider the jobs where you are compensated $100 for a single notary act and view that as over compensation as part of the calculation? Just trying to understand the logic.
Simple answer: they don’t know how many notarizations until they’ve m/l completed the highly customized-to-situation pkg…which INCLUDES fee to notary. Oh my, this one has a lot of issues/notarization so we’ll have to re-do the pkg. to account for those unusual extra notarizations OR pay generous enough to begin with so the notary feels they’ve been well-compensated and won’t quibble over (really not much) extra work.
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I understand the math. It’s the accounting part that throws the math out of whack. You actually are not being compensated for notarizing a document. You are being compensated for completing the paperwork for a loan transaction, which includes notarizing some signers’ signatures. Again, for the accounting to be accurate you will also need to show: Fee $100, with 12 notarizations at a loss of ($20). Between the two scenarios, you’ve netted $30. So for the accounting to work you’ve got to consider when you are “overcompensated” as well as when you consider you’ve been “undercompensated”. But, who among us is going to consider that we’ve been overcompensated?
Agreeing with Arichter’s assessment. In essense, the number of notarizations varies from title company (TC) to TC and from lender to lender and then you have to keep in mind if there’s a Trust involved and/or other variables. And then, there will be variations within those parameters.
For example, it used to be a typical conventional refi package from Amrock for Rocket Mortgage (and it’s former namestyle) was only a package of 84 pages with 2 notarizations – the DOT and the Signature/Name Affidavit. Now, that same package has 4 notarizations, regardless of whether it’s a paper package or an IPEN. If there’s a Trust involved, add at least 2 more notarizations.
Now, take that same Rocket package but this time from Old Republic Title. ORTC has at least 8 notarizations in their packages … plus whatever the lender requires. So now you’re looking at a minimum of 12 notarizations - 8 for ORTC and 4 for Rocket. That’s without a Trust, without a non-borrowing spouse, without any other extenuating circumstances.
If you are initially dealing with a Signing Service (SS) scheduler, unless they already have the docs, they have no idea how many notarizations are in the package. Then, keep in mind, those schedulers are working on a tight time frame. They have to get those files assigned ASAP. They usually don’t have time to go through each package and discern how many notarizations. This is why when I get a call from a SS I’ll ask all the pertinent questions before giving my fee quote – signing location, time, number of signers, any special instructions i.e. scan backs, POA, Trust involved; if they don’t know package size then I’ll ask who’s the lender and TC. Granted, with a blast offer you don’t have the opportunity to ask all those questions. However, if interested, you can accept then contact hiring party to ask those questions and if you find the fee doesn’t match the work parameters, turn it back. After a while, you’ll know which offers may be okay to accept.
Please provide a URL and an exact quote. I have only heard of one state, I think it was along the southeastern coast, where the SOS claimed that notaries were supposed to always charge the fees set out in the law. Everywhere else allows notaries to charge a lower fee, or no fee at all. (That is, if the state even regulates fees; mine dosen’t.)
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I too use Notary Gadget as mentioned by others on this post. Each state has an amount in their notary laws about how much a Notary can charge for the actual notarial act. That amount times the number of times you stamp your stamp can then be exempt from Self-Employment Tax. Notary Gadget helps you keep track of this. I have not ever had to play Self-Employment Tax on any of my income relating to Loan Signing. My other expenses have offset any other income I have made when already subtracting the $x fee per notarial stamp. If you are using your Notary Journal properly knowing how frequently you have stamped your stamp should be easy to keep track of on a per-transaction basis and enter into Notary Gadget software. Notary Gadget also helps keep track of all your business-related expenses and your mileage for each signing as well as what has been paid to you (accounts receivables), etc. It makes tax time super easy and is well worth the $99 subscription fee I pay per year.
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I should have been clearer to state that we can charge $10 or less or none at all. I think my brain was ahead of my typing and it may have appeared I was saying that it is mandatory for us to charge $10. My apologies for any confusion.
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Well in all truth here we are still a 3rd party pay basically because it comes from the tittle company, they have the platforms and fees so you get your cut! Direct signings come directly from the tittle company in which you would see the rate at 250 or more! Direct signings get you more money because they don’t have to pay a platform to find you! Hope this helps! Blessings to you and your business.
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Blessings to your business as well! Going direct is always the most profitable way to go!
I think because then they would have to stop and count the number of documents requiring notarization within the loan package. And it is not just the documents requiring notarizations that they care about. They need the notary signing agent to go through each and every loan document with the borrowers so that nothing is missed. It is easier for them to lump the assignment request altogether so they can just ask for a flat rate.
Short answer: TIME/money/efficiency.
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Right, each state’s rules specify MAXIMUM fees allowed. Meaning that a notary may charge less (or none at all), but may not exceed the maximum:
“Tex. Gov’t. Code Ann. § 406.024 sets out the maximum fees a Notary Public, or their employer, may charge for notary public services. A Notary Public who charges more than the maximum set out below subjects the notary to possible criminal prosecution and suspension or revocation of the notary’s notary public commission by the Secretary of State’s office”: Fees for Notary Public Services | Notary Training SOS Texas
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Tell the signing company the same thing…
I usually figure $50 per hour …and include printing & preparation travel to and from …signing time then scan then back out and back to drop .
Then gas insurance supplies and profit
$270. Would b ok
Where we are is far less per notarization then $10.q.
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Boy maybe the NNA Who charges us and claims to be an educating source. Should write an article.
Maybe your state senator or whomever should b alerted
Maybe the state atty general should be notified for a class action maybe u can sue for theft of service.
Or the AG sues for price fixing and collusion
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Are you speaking to me? I’m confused. I’m not the one here screaming I’m underpaid because I can’t charge per stamp, per minute etc. Rude is never a good look, Earl,
Y’know, I completely understand everyone’s consternation regarding income-expense issues and why payment for the services we provide is such a “thing”. This topic has been covered from stem to stern so often, I’m surprised Notary Cafe allows it to go on. But, this is where we air our grievances, I guess. So, what have I got to offer on this subject on this forum?
Well, how about this: A notary’s operating costs vary from region to region and for a myriad of reasons. How a notary charges for their services is largely based on desired profit margin. And, EVERYONE’S margin is different for all the obvious reasons. Margin is directly affected by variable costs. Let me give you two glaring examples I experienced just today.
Half a mile from my home office is a gas station that today, charges $5.95 for a gallon of premium (remember, this is Southern California!). However, only 3 miles away, the gas station I go to charges $4.19 a gallon for the same premium gas. That’s a difference of $1.76 PER GALLON!!! Why would anyone go to station 1 when they could save on average $28 a fill-up (if empty) going to station 2?
Next, I priced copier paper about an hour ago. Tru Red from Staples is $57.50 for a 10 ream case. Natural Choice from Costco is $39 for a 10 ream case. Essentially the same paper (let’s not argue this point, please). Why buy the Staples paper over the Costco when you can save $18 a case?
OK, price differences fairly established, right? If a notary is unaware of the cheaper products, higher costs are in play. Margins shrink and demands are made for higher fees from the signing services. Well, the signing services are looking at their costs, too. They want to pay the lowest amount possible to maximize thier profit margins. Their systems and algorithms are designed to locate the low-cost provider and assign the job to them. They keep their own records and statistics and are aware of how to make the most margin possible. Being informed is the key and they have nice databases that tell them who the good notaries are and who is priced fairly (which often means the “lowest”) and that’s who they go with. Just like you would if you were informed about the lower priced gas or paper.
I know this all sounds like apples and oranges, but it’s not, really. It’s a simple economic equation that, at least, provides some insight as to how and why there are such disparities in fees offered/accepted and how that stacks up against the widely variable costs we all have. This is just another way of looking at it.
In the end, keep your costs to a minimum, charge as much as you can, and do your job well. Title/escrow/lenders/signing services are not likely to change their fee structures so we have to be as smart (frugal?) as we can. Know your costs, calculate your margin and decide if this is the line of work you can be satisfied with.
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What a very excellent post, Bobby.
I understand your thought process in this question. In my state, we can charge $5 per notarization. For my GNW clients, I don’t print, but if I’m asked to perform that service, I charge for that. If I’m asked to scan, I charge for that. Those are extra services that I don’t typically offer, but I do accommodate the client. Plus, we can charge an agreed upon amount for travel (as opposed to the fed mileage) in my state.
That said, if I do a loan closing, I’m notarizing, printing, driving to the appointment, going to FedEx, scanning, explaining, etc. So, the $50 - $80 fees offered are NOT making a profit for me. I have the potential to earn more by doing GNW in my state.
Yes, we are here to provide a service to clients, but we are in business to earn a profit. So, we must consider our expenses, time, and expertise for our service.
During covid, signing services were paying $100 - 200+ because they needed notaries. There has been a dramatic shift in the fees, but we’re offering the same service.
In closing, there are title companies who pay $200 - $250 when you go direct. I hope this information helps.
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I feel ya! However, the problem is not the amount of notarizations, it’s the fee we accept. When I got into this business, I knew the deal. I came in under these conditions and I accept the fact that I choose the deals I take or reject. My advice to you would be to look into starting you own SS, and you set the fees. If not that route, this job has to be fun. I manage my business to maximize my profit. It’s like any other career, you got to know what you are getting into before you get into it. Because you can’t change the rules unless you buy or own the company.
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Some companies include very few notarizations in large document packages, so it wouldn’t be fair to receive only $30—$15 per notarization in California—for such a substantial workload. I believe it’s about finding the right balance. I don’t accept low fees!
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