Where do I draw the line as as a notary?

Here is what the NNA says

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My only question for JBOT is you mentioned you met with her alone. Did you approach her?

I had to go back and meet with her because there were a few missing documents that she needed to sign. Without me saying anything she volunteered the Information that even though she didn’t think the transaction was a good one she was doing it for her husband. She joked that she wouldn’t mind if the papers got lost in the mail. I told her that I hope everything worked out for her and left. I did not ask her if she was being forced to sign, I knew what it was—-she was in a bad marriage in which her husband had manipulated her in some way into signing and she, being an agreeable wife not wanting to make waves was complying with a controlling manipulative husband. I’m not a marriage counselor but I can spot a bad relationship, my original question was where do I draw the line? As someone mentioned, she was not being forced and no one was holding a gun to her head, she was in a bad marriage. It was an odd and unsettling situation, we had already signed everything, in fact all documents had been faxed over to title. In hindsight I might have told her that I wasn’t going to send documents if she didn’t want me too, but that’s about the only thing I could have thought to have done.

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Was it a refi? Or a Seller’s Package?

It doesn’t matter what the package was.

There’s a ethical issue here that leaves one open for legal action depending on your state of business.

As stated… if you genuinely believe a signer is being forced or manipulated in any way you can/should walk & report his/her reluctance to sign. It is for their protection as well as yours.

Consider self preservation if you can’t think beyond your wallet in chasing a check instead of acting from a better place.

Proceeding to complete a signing when it’s obvious any party is acting out of anything less than his/free will can place in the legal line of fire. Even a crappy attorney could make a case because of this. You could be held as a party to fraud or coercion should legal action come about.

This idea of business as usual is was allowed things like Enron, Bernie Maydoff, the entire housing crash, etc to happen. No one here can say that they would not like a line of defense if in the same situation.

Remember that “business as usual” approach when signing agencies, title, etc are late in paying & strive to find reasons to lower your fees. Those are not ethical practices yet people here rage when it happens to them.

You simply report that the signer did not want to proceed.

Most people on the forum do not have verifiable training in psychology to diagnose various conditions & their nuances. Keep that to yourself. Most judges would toss that testimony because you lack the education to determine someones mental state & personality black holes.

I know one NSA who proceeded with a contract close though all the signs where there that she was being pressured by her husband. It turned into a mess. The wife had the credit and was the sole guarantor. He was targeted as a participating party in coercing the wife a year later when she sued everyone tied to that loan to place it all on the husbands plate in a divorce.

He was spared financial loss via a court award, but the wonderful state of Texas did terminate his notary status for 2 years.

I showed for a signing where is was obvious the girl friend was physically abused just before I arrived. We sat to do the paperwork. She was the only signer. The guy was almost sitting on her lap. He was affable and quite courteous. I asked for a drink. She was basically in a corner so he went into the kitchen. I asked if she was ok, told her I was calling the police, & felt compelled to ask if she was signing willingly. She refused to answer. I took it as no.

We “completed” the signing for her well being. I called to the police as soon as I got into my truck then let title know that she was being forced to sign thru physical violence.

Sadly the lady on the phone only heard what she wanted to hear. “Forced signing” translated to the paperwork is complete. She asked “So she did sign… right?”

My response wasn’t all that professional.

I told her “Yes she signed. We did that so she wouldn’t get beat for refusing to sign, but there was no way in Heaven or under hell would I send in those docs.” Those papers were shredded the next day after I called her boss to talk about everything. I reported her to her states licensing board after that.

My experience was one of those obvious moments. I still would have shredded the papers or created a reason to end the signing if there was nothing physical & I truly believed she wasn’t signing of her own free will.

Ultimate it is your choice BUT I prefer to error on the side of doing was is ethically sound. I would want someone to help me not hurt myself if ever in the same situations.

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Oh, based on the story in here, I was just wondering if the client had 3 days to think it over!

Exactly, Dominus! Complete the signing, but report the conversation to Title and let them decide what to do. You have a DUTY to report any suspected coercion and in this case, it does appear it is SUSPECTED. You don’t stop the signing you report it. Big difference. You do not put yourself in the line of fire. You CYA by REPORTING it.

The documents are not yours to decide what to do with. They are the property of the Title company. Shredding those docs, big no-no.

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I tend to concur with your statement. I’m also speculating that I would have paused the signing and made a clarifying statement about not signing under duress, etc. Afterwards, if I would have felt as strongly as the notary regarding what she felt or witnessed, I would have made a note to the title team for them to decide whether or not to pursue. I only stop the signing if either signer verbally states that she/he is not comfortable with the terms or process and wishes to cancel or stop.

I totally agree, we as notaries/signing agents and human beings should do our duty, due diligence and be compassionate towards people. I believe there is a way to handle this professionally.

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You never know what someone has to their throat behind closed doors.

I agree 100%. If we have any reservation we need to follow our gut instinct. I would certainly let the signing company or title know what she said. It is on them to decide how to proceed.

I think that when domestic violence is taking place (whether emotionally or physically) the recision period will make no difference. If the abuser found out that the signer exercised her right to cancel, it could be dangerous for the signer. I used to work in the DV division of the Prosecuting Attorney’s office. I saw a lot that I can never unsee.

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If there is suspected coercion you have an obligation to halt the signing right then and there. Notify the signing agency/title comp and let them deal with it–you are not a lawyer. Once a notary goes farther you open yourself up for a lawsuit and none of us are wealthy enough to survive it.

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I would note that in my journal and pass that along to the title co/signing co so that they are aware.

Wow! Thank you for posting this. It sounds like coercion. But the question is: how would you have gotten out of the house upon refusing to continue to do the signing if you had discovered prior that it was coercion before beginning signing the documents? What if he was coercing her and then you refused and he began to get combative? As a female NSA this would terrify me. What if the husband was abusive then that mean he may attack whoever the NSA is. My God.

I’'m having a hard time accepting that proceeding with the signing as such. One of things to consider is is she signing on her free will? In the training, it was brought up that if you feel that this person is being force, halt the signing. This sounds like coercion.

I had a similar situation once, although they were both on the paperwork, he told her to get in there and sign and shoved her. I said I cannot make anyone sign and if you threaten or shove her again, I will leave without the papers being signed! I debated when I left if I should call the police or not, but I don’t know how he treats her when others are not around and I thought she could call the police if she wanted to.
I also remembered what another notary said to me before we are not to get in the middle of their fight,we are supposed to be neutral

Be careful of your assertiveness in a potentially violent situation as this might cause someone to interpret your actions as threatening. You may have to talk your way out of the environment. You can claim that there’s a problem with the document package, something’s missing and you’ll have to reschedule, suddenly get ill, etc… The moment you are out and at in a safe location call the police and document what you observed in your journal, especially what made you think someone or yourself were in danger or being coerced. Your journal becomes evidence for the investigation. You only want to assertively refuse to close the signing if doing so won’t put your or anyone else in danger.

I have on my job sheets ( a form I created) both oath and affirmation wording, so I can actually administer sworn affidavits correctly.

Part of the statement is that the signer is "executing this document of their own free will and accord’.

However, if there is any indication of pressure or coercion, observations should be made AFTER the completed appointment as notes in the journal, and potentially in writing to the lender (stating factual observation, not opinion).

For example, if the signature is provided under threat (“sign it, or else”), the lender should be advised. Notes and communications with lender should be done after leaving the signing location, as domestic violence or other dysfunction can present some really unpredictable, and DANGEROUS, situations.

Obviously, if physical violence (or threat thereof) is directly observed by the NSA, the NSA must consider whether police should be advised.

HWB.

Based on YOUR post, here’s what I got:
1.) I’m not a psychologist. If I was, I wouldn’t be in this business (hence the Narcissist thing).
2.) You met with her AFTER the signing was conducted (why?)
3.) Determination of a “duress” situation (your part as a notary) should be confirmed PRIOR to one signing, not after (Was this done?)
4.) She “Jokingly” made a statement AFTER signing willingly. (so what’s the issue exactly?)
Assumptions only generate more assumptions, as you can see in the replies to your post.
It’s definitely OK to have an “odd feeling.” It’s not (always) OK to act on those “odd feelings” based on assumptions, especially if you followed SOS procedures.
For example, if my wife tells me we need to take cash out of our home to pay for 4 late car payments or lose the car, Yeah, I wouldn’t like it, but it doesn’t mean I won’t benefit from it. We need transportation!