How have we reached this current state, characterized by consistently low fees and a persistent lack of recognition as the valuable assets we are within the loan signing process? Throughout my interactions over the years with representatives from various hiring companies, a recurring and disconcerting theme has consistently emerged: the phrase “We pay what the geographic market accepts.” Within our profession, a concerning reality exists where we are rarely, if ever, find ourselves being actively recruited, sought after, or even proactively approached by companies, despite the undeniable fact that our specialized skills and essential services consistently perform vital and indispensable tasks for both lenders and title companies. It is crucial to emphasize that each individual within this community has made a deliberate and conscious decision to enter this profession, and each of us has made significant investments, both financially and personally, to do so. A fundamental truth about our roles is the substantial amount of time and unwavering commitment that we dedicate, even before we receive any form of payment or compensation for the services we provide. Despite our contributions, we often find ourselves with a disturbingly limited ability to influence or shape the pricing structures associated with our fees for services rendered. Most of us, very likely, entered this field by following conventional and established entry pathways, meticulously completing applications, successfully passing state-mandated examinations, obtaining relevant training and certifications, securing necessary bonds, and purchasing essential Error & Omissions (E&O) policies – all of this undertaken without any concrete or solid guarantee that we would ever be able to recoup or recover our initial investments. With all this in mind, my hypothesis proposes this: wouldn’t we, as a collective and united community, derive significant collective benefits from assisting, supporting, and guiding one another along the path toward a deeper understanding of how to assertively and effectively demand the inherent value and deserved worth that we each bring to the table? In my closing, I am not suggesting the formulation of a union, collective bargaining or price fixing. Again, I simply ask this question, are we our “Brothers or Sisters” keepers? “A rising tide lifts all boats” is often attributed to John F. Kennedy, who used it in a 1963 speech to emphasize that improvements in the economy benefit all participants.”
Absolutely agree. Been trying to do so for years. But some of our brothers and sisters still think they’re doing super taking $100. Another older saying–“You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink”–comes to mind.
Today is a perfect example of how well we all can do IF we all say NO to the low fees. All of Arkansas (& other southern states) are in the middle of an extreme weather event and anyone who ventures out is a fool & asking for trouble. I am pleased to report we have nobody here ‘asking for trouble’. As a result of nobody accepting any job, I’ve been watching fees offered increase dramatically—$150, $175, $225—(which is what we oldies have always claimed were standard) — and still no takers. These have all since been postponed & presumably will be re-scheduled–most likely the lowball fee will again be offered. Now IF my brothers & sisters would just keep on saying no to low, you betcha the fees will go up to what had been offered IF EVERYONE CONTINUES TO SAY NO TO LOW.
This is PROOF that turning down low fees does result in higher fees! We CAN ‘lift all boats’, one ‘no to low’ at a time.
Amen. Amen! AMEN!! Can I hear an AMEN!!??!!
When I initially read OP, I totally agreed and immediately thought of the saying quoted by Arichter (“You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink”). We NSAs, who’ve been at this biz for over 15 years, have been trying to preach to all newbies every chance we get to just say no to low fees, to counter-offer on those low fees, that, regardless what those low-paying SSs chirp, the funds to pay professional notary fees are there. It’s just a matter of those low-ballers wanting to keep most of the fee. Unfortunately, we keep hearing all the same excuses:
- only trying to get some experience so I can charge better fees down the road.
- something coming in is better than nothing.
- all those reviews on this SS say they’re low pay/slow pay/no pay; the SS says I’ll get paid in 60 days, that I’m special 'cause I’m doing them a favor by getting this signing done for them.
- they said since this is a last-minute signing, they’ll send my confirmation with my fee and witness fee and pay terms upon completion of signing and scanning;
- etc.
We all have an excuse for our poor judgement. We seasoned NSAs have either the experience with the poor choices or have learned from someone else’s errors and are just trying to educate the newbies so history doesn’t repeat itself.
This reminds me of when my older daughter was a teenager in her rebellious stage. One day she blatantly told me, “Let me make my own mistakes!” I guess we can think of those notaries not heeding our warnings as rebellious teenagers. 
Hopefully they learn before it’s too late and they’ve run themselves out of business.
No, we are not anyone’s keeper. Each person makes their own business decisions. Other people’s expectations of what someone should or shouldn’t accept is just someone else’s expectations. I am not going to get on a everyone’s rate acceptance is my outrage thing. Sorry.
[quote=“johnsonps306, post:4, topic:55130”]
I am not going to get on a everyone’s rate acceptance is my outrage thing
What? Say again with clarity, please.
It means everyone jumps on the it is the fault of those accepting fees I find unacceptable that established unacceptable fees and they all need to just stop right now. And I think it Is out of line. I am entitled to my opinion as much as everyone who complains non stop about where the industry is on fees.
Well said but no one listens they just like to grip. What if I had a car dealership and everyone that came by to tell me how to sell cars.
Life was good when no signing services existed; direct with title and establishing relationships with the schedulers was what made business nice and smooth, fun and profitable.
Then along comes the “middleman” signing services and suddenly the signing agent business turned into a lottery - whoever could quote the best fee and put the most in the SS pocket won the prize - a signing where they actually worked in the red…unbeknownst to them. Then it got even worse - those signing agents who couldn’t get signings opened their own signing service….that whole thing just exploded and yes, the low fee quoting NSAs drove down the expected fee for everyone.
There IS no standard of fee in this “industry”. Never has been. But there IS an expectation that the work we do will be adequately compensated….and as a result of the above, it’s not happening.
@earl226 you mention people telling you how to sell cars…good point. Tell me this - how far do you think you’d get if you called a plumber and said “I’ll pay you $50 to come out and fix my problem” - or an electrician or any other service provider. The SS that tells you what fee to accept is doing just that….and all the notaries who go along with it, IMO, are being robbed blind. And they won’t find out until tax time when they realize they never made a profit at all - IF they do, in fact, file taxes as I’ve seen many posts where the notaries and signing agents honestly believe their income is tax free.
THIS is why we try to convey, over and over again, yes know your worth - and you are worth far more than what they say you are.
What some people fail to understand is that fees offered are determined by an algorithm: Every time a worker accepts a low fee, they provide data proving that the market can be pushed even lower—and the entire market adjusts downward accordingly. Conversely, as I illustrated in my ‘everyone said NO…and fees offered went up dramatically’ post. Say no more often and see for yourself.
It’s kind of amazing that almost every signing service will offer $90 for a standard refinance (except those that offer less). If you see a text or email from a signing service that you’ve never heard of before, the fee quoted will be $90. Where did they get that from? They checked what every other signing service was offering and followed the crowd. It’s pretty clear that the only way you will get more than $90 for a refinance is to counteroffer and hope that nobody takes the initial offer. This has been going on since I entered this business in 2014. The standard fee was $90 then, and it’s $90 now. Name me one other business where compensation is the same now as it was 10 years ago. Expenses are not the same. Expenses are MUCH higher today than they were 10 years ago.
Once in a while, you’ll get an offer where a decent fee will be offered. Your first reaction to that will be to ask, “What’s the catch? Do they want me to hand-deliver the docs 50 miles away in rush hour traffic?”.
The way I go about my business now is to counter almost every offer that I’m interested in doing. Some I get, most I don’t. I pick and choose the ones that I even want to respond to, based on location, time of day, scanback requirement, and estimated time and effort to complete the job. My goal is to make a fair profit and minimize the time I’m going to spend on any assignment. I’ve been doing this long enough to pretty much be able to know which jobs are going to take a short amount of my time and which will take more. That’s pretty much how I go about my business these days. I don’t see it changing anytime soon.
It’s just more proof that we’re being played. Will we ever wise up?
It’s not a question of when we’ll wise up. I think we know what’s going on. The question is how long we’re going to put up with it.
How do you think griping is going to change the industry? If you don’t like the fee don’t take the job. Every refi I do pays 100.00 most 115.00 This is a fee-based industry, and we are not going to tell them how to run their business.
@earl226 Agreed, it’s a fee-based industry. Respect that you’re making $100-$115 per refi. I don’t think we’re trying to tell anyone how to run things. The cool thing about being in a capitalist country/marketplace is that it’s a two-way street, and we can price our services how we want to. That’s how we can see if we’re a good fit to work together.
Smart move..cant make a living on lo fees
My re fi fees are $150 . Plus ..period NOTHING LESS
I believe notaries should help determine fair market value for our services. However, when newer notaries enter the industry, they often compromise pricing in exchange for experience.
I recently completed a seller signing where the signer was frustrated after paying $5,000, only to receive documents that were not fully prefilled at the time of signing. He understood the process, as he had completed many similar transactions. My notary fee was only a small fraction of what he paid overall.
While I would not consider my fee to be a lowball rate, situations like this push me to focus more on independent signings rather than work obtained through signing agencies. Lately, it feels like there is a concerted effort to keep notary fees significantly undervalued.
That’s exactly what I’ve been doing. The standard here seems to be $75.00. It use to be 90.00 then 120.00+ . I stay within a 15 mile range of my home office. My minimum fee being that distance is $100.00. I have a few signing companies that pay me 125$. I don’t don’t do many others because 75$ is not worth my time. I do counter most and some I do get.
I’m retired, but I enjoy working and know I’m worth more than minimum wages. I’ve been a Notary since 2005 and I’m also a realtor and my other side hustle is Fingerprinting. I enjoy my time freedom and fortunately I don’t have to work if I don’t want to.
So now anyone in your area knows to quote $140 and get the orders. Which is what happens.
I agree with your premises. I also, believe that t a union should be considered.