How do you usually handle these types of situations?
Yesterday was the first time that I’ve encountered a particularly irate signer, they were unhappy with the numbers and after waiting for 30-40 minutes and not being able to get in touch with title, I told him that it would be best to adjourn the signing. He got up, was stomping around and then slammed a door very hard. Then came back a minute later and said that they wanted to sign anyways.
I felt pretty uncomfortable at that point, it was getting late in the day and I ZERO cell service up there (we used their home phone when trying to call title). I told them that we wouldn’t be completing the signing and hightailed it out of there. All around, the entire signing felt off. I put in the completion report to the SS that we didn’t sign because the borrowers weren’t happy with the numbers. Admittedly, I left out the part about the signer becoming irate because it didn’t seem worth it to get into that kind of he said/she said thing and because they’re local. The kind of drama that could arise from me making that accusation didn’t seem worth the trouble. I guess that was my mistake.
The SS called today, signers are pissed and complained to title about me, who then called the SS and are refusing to pay for my trip out there. That’s when I told the SS about the signers becoming irate/my phone not working up there/me not feeling comfortable staying to complete the signing with angry borrowers who didn’t like what they were signing. They seemed understanding enough, I asked if this situation would affect my signing with them (I get 80% of my work from this SS), they said no. But they also said that they can’t guarantee that the title company WON’T tell the borrowers about me reporting the angry door slamming/feeling uncomfortable. Which, again, is what I was trying to avoid because they’re local and I don’t want something like this coming back to bite me later. Ugh, I guess only time will tell.
Have you ever been in a situation that felt less than 100% safe? How did you handle it???
In my opinion, as they knew what the numbers were and decided to sign, though angry about the rates or numbers, it would have been a legitimate signing. They were not signing against their will. However, when it comes down to your safety, only you can make the decision. Obviously, I value my life more than $200, but angry does not necessarily mean violence will ensue. If I had left under the circumstances you explained, I would not expect to be paid. That’s just my opinion on being entitled to the payment. Have you looked up any NNA or other policy that deals with something similar?
I honestly don’t mind not getting paid and would have forfeited the $$ to avoid drama but it seemed like the SS wasn’t going to let title get away with not paying them.
The only mention of safety I was able to find from the NNA says to prioritize your safety above all else and leave if you feel like you’re in danger/don’t prioritize finishing a signing over your own safety.
It’s just really difficult to make a determination on the spot. Where do you draw the line? On one hand, him stamping around and slamming doors doesn’t automatically mean that I’M in real danger. On the other hand, a grown adult not being able to keep their cool was a pretty big red flag for me. It’s one thing to be angry about the situation and express your frustration verbally, it’s another thing to start acting out that anger using physical force and slamming things. That, combined with the fact that I had no cell service, is what really concerned me.
I guess I’m wondering why you thought this - assuming this was a refinance they had 3 days to hash errors out with their LO and get their questions answered. I agree with dmpigford in a way - once he settled down and said let’s go ahead and sign you should have continued - UNLESS…and I seriously mean UNLESS you feared for your life or felt you were in imminent danger.
What was their complaint to title about you? Also, I’m curious, why did you not include in your report the full reason for your leaving from the getgo?
I’m feeling there’s something missing in this scenario - if not my apologies. I, personally, would have explained the 3-day rescission period (if it applied), tried to defuse the situation and done my best to get the signing done - as long as there’s no threat to me. And I’m not saying you didn’t do your best, but one thing in your post comes across to me - you were nervous and frightened.
I didn’t mention the irate signer because I wanted to avoid drama. They’re local, really local, it’s a close-knit area and I didn’t want news getting back to them that I told the title co. about his actions. Understandably, most people wouldn’t react well to that kind of accusation (even if true) and it seemed easier to omit. At the time, it didn’t seem worth the potential trouble. I (wrongly) assumed that the SS would dock/withhold my fee, title would talk to the borrowers about their concerns, and the signing would be rescheduled. But it sounds like the borrowers called and filed a complaint about me specifically, so here we are.
Up until I mentioned adjourning the signing, the borrowers REALLY did not want to sign. They seemed thoroughly confused about the numbers/what they meant and had expressed their hesitation multiple times while we waited.
I was definitely a bit nervous for my own wellbeing, mostly because I had no cell service whatsoever and if the signing did continue to devolve I would be up a creek with no paddle. But, honestly, I was mostly nervous about potential issues with the borrowers signing docs that they didn’t agree with and me getting caught up in the aftermath. They didn’t have a good understanding of who I was/what my relationship was with their lender/title co even though I tried to explain. They even blamed us not being able to make contact on ME personally, saying that the only reason the signing was so late (5pm) was because that’s when I was available. (The date/time was set before I accepted the signing)
If someone asked me “Why did you notarize these documents if the signers clearly indicated that they were uncomfortable with the transaction and didn’t agree with the terms laid out therein?” What would I say? “But there’s a three day recision period!” does’t sound like it would hold up if my notarizations were questioned.
It’s a shame nobody explained this to them in advance…sounds like if you did push it, they could say they were coerced…
You’re right on that point - again the coercion.
I’m sorry to hear you went through that - I hope the company does the right thing - since you have a good relationship with them, maybe everything will work out.
I am sorry you went through that. To date, I have never had a loan signer be happy as I walk-in. Which I think is weird. I quickly learned to calmly and politely remind them that they were the people that initiated the loan signing, confirmed the date and time with me, and that all I did was print the documents that their loan administrator created and sent to my signing agency, so they are free to call the loan administrator and look at each and every page before they sign. However, I will only be there for a certain amount of time. Only half ever get through to the loan administrator when I am with them. And so far, I have never had anyone refuse to sign after they make the phone call, regardless if they get through or not. It’s like a little act, or power play, for them, so I just play it off like I am not emotionally invested in their drama. I have left as friends with each and every signer after they sign.
Before the vaccines and during the surge, I specifically said to a lady upon confirming the appointment that I would only sign outdoors because of COVID. It was going to be a lovely day, so just open her garage or set up a table outside. On the phone she agreed. Then when I showed up she called me every nasty name to my face because I would not go into her house. I ignored those names, and said, “I am not taking a risk with my life or my families life so that you can refinance. Have a good day.” Turned around and started walking down the drive. She called after me and said, “Ok, I’ll sign outside.” We did the signing in her yard, and then she gave me a sincere apology for calling me all those names and I left as friends. People are toddlers don’t give into their drama if you can.
It’s a judgment call. You trusted your instinct regarding your personal safety and that’s commendable.
My usual method when managing irate signers is below, but with no cell service, it absolutely changes the configuration of the scenario and options for action.
This is the url for the thread where I posted an earlier reply on this topic: Abusive Signer
"My response to this type of demeanor [abuse] whether during the signing confirmation call, while enroute to the signing location, or at the signing location:
Reach out to the title company [or other hiring party] directly to advise of the obstacle to successful, professional completion of the scheduled signing appointment. I suggest acceptable (to me) possible options. I then ask for their instructions regarding their preference of my suggested options.
NOTE: If the signer(s) are present and acting in an aberrant manner, my call to title is on speaker while I’m repacking the briefcase, walking out the door, and safely entering my vehicle. Your personal safety is paramount. Phones today have excellent microphones and title will be witness to the signer(s) behavior."
On occasion I’ve had signers complain to me about the numbers. I remind them that, as the notary, I have nothing to do with the contents of the loan package other than obtaining their signatures at closing. If they have any questions or concerns about the loan there are three options: 1) contact the lender for further information while I wait; 2) sign the documents and exercise their right of rescission; 3) abort the signing and reschedule. Beyond that, you have no further responsibility. But, it is your choice how you wish to handle it from that point. IN my opinion, irate temperament focused toward you is not acceptable under any circumstances. As far as payment, once you have printed the documents, made the trip and met with the signers - regardless of outcome, the agency owes you unless your behavior violated policy or rules of conduct in some way. Your best defense against this is to call the agency right away and inform them of what you have encountered and how you responded. Prepare them for some kind of response from the signers. But stand your ground on your fee. Once in a while a signing goes south for reasons that you may never know/understand. I think we’ve all had one of those. Unfortunately, it’s the nature of the beast. But, your safety is paramount, and always follow your instincts.
I had a similar experience with trying to just CONFIRM a loan modification signing. The borrower lives nearly 2hours away so I called to advise I’d try to arrive 15 minutes early… two signers so I stated we’d need about 45minutes to an hour to verify I’d/sign/notarize 2 copies of the documents… he said “I’ll be coming from my son’s soccer practice by 10:30am and I have to leave at 11am either you can get it done in 30 minutes or I don’t know what to tell you!” I said ok sir sounds like you want to reschedule. I’ll let the lender know ASAP. I’m not wasting 4 hours on customers who are NOT INTERESTED.
I’m very new to NSA but I advise the customers at confirmation if any point you have a question with the terms of the documents reach out to the lender—I’ll need to stop the signing immediately. Under oath I’m unable to witness a signing when a customer EXPRESSED unwillingness.
Safety, safety, safety. When I arrive I let all my signers know that I checked into the appointment already and I need to check out directly with the title company after the signing is complete.
Signer having an issue, I report during the signing, if service is available, to get a voice on the phone immediately. I have always reported any negative remarks back to signing agency when in comments sections when completing the assignments or I call them directly to report the borrower actions when I get into my car. I don’t won’t anything to do with being the one that caused the situation to escalate because the client vented before you. If you fear the borrower in any manner, let them know that you will try to help resolve their issue by reaching out to the lender but you need to go out to the car to get phone reception (remember where you were when you lost service?) and that it may take x amount of minutes to get the issue resolved but you will return after you have direction from the signing agency or title company. Leave.
But first, I do remind them that we spoke when we set the appointment that they do have a 3 day right to cancel when I confirmed the appointment. If they were unable to resolve the issue with the lender then that can exercise that option after you try to reach the lender, title and signing company first.
Its all practice and setting expectations with the borrowers prior to your arrival. When I confirm my appointments I let them know what to expect when I am there and reminding them to review their documents the day prior to your arrival so that they may resolve any questions they have with the lender or title before you arrive. I also let them know that they can exercise the 3 day right to cancel which you will explaining further when you get there if they are unable to resolve their questions beforehand. I do remind them that I am not an attorney and can not answer any legal questions, I am only there to witness the signatures as their notary.
This in my eyes disarms them knowing that they are not under any pressure.
When I explain to them the next time they will hear from me is when I will be calling them when I am on my way to their location and to report back to me if we will experience any delays as I will have an appointment (to send docs back) right after their appointment is complete. I also ask them to keep my number handy if anything should come up before then, just knowing they can call you prior to you arriving for the signing disarms them up front.
Work on your own script to make it comfortable for you. Do some mock signings with yourself to get comfortable with how long an appointment will take. Timing yourself so you know how long a signing will take. But most importantly, let someone in your family know when you re going to an appointment and when to expect to hear from you again and most importantly share your location with a loved one.
I’ve been in the notary business for a long time and here are a few methods I use before I even set foot out the door. First, when you call to confirm the appointment ask the borrower if they have approved the CD as they are supposed to receive it prior to your arrival. If not, then you tell the signing company or title that hired you to make sure the borrower has agreed to the terms of the CD, i.e, loan amount, interest rate, monthly payment, and escrow if applicable. That way when you get to the signing, there are no surprises and everyone is on the same page.
let me give you another option to get this thing signed. Have the customer leave a text and a voicemail to the loan officer. Set the CD aside, save for last document to sign. Tell them if the loan officer doesn’t get back to us within 15-20min., you will write “we will not sign” and initial on the signature line of the CD, or across the signature page. If agree to those terms, continue to sign, if not, wait 10 min. then leave. Most signing companies will pay you full fee if your at the signing for at least 25 min, that worst case scenario.
You are owed full fee for a 30+ min wait and dealing with that!
According to the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau’s final rule, the creditor must deliver the Closing Disclosure to the consumer at least three business days prior to the date of consummation of the transaction. The customer should of already reviewed these numbers three days prior…
We all (almost) have or will experience upset signers. DON’T take it personally. In fact, in my introduction of the process to the signers I always state that I am an independent contractor working for many title & signing companies. I am not an employee and do not have a vested interest in their loan.
If this happens again, tell the full story in your completion report and you should probably state that you are not comfortable meeting with them again.
Finally, once he said ok, let’s sign this you should have completed the assignment unless you feared for your safety.
Don’t let this one hold you back; learn from it and keep moving forward. Good luck!
I would have told the title company as part of my closing confirmation once I went to close out the order. I would not accept not getting paid. The closing completed and you did your job.
I had one recently, close to the craziest I’ve had in years. I touch base with the signers several times in the day. Traffic has me at a delay and they said they still wanted to sign. I even message them when I am 30 minutes and 10 minutes from them. I get there and they answer the door wife with mask husband without and I had my mask on. This is in WA/OR our states are still in lock down for the most part. The husband starts saying he is not sure who I am or who “A” is (title company) and that they had sent him a confirmation that a Dave would be coming out. Remember I have been in contact on the phone and in text all day with this guy. Never does he tell me this. He now says he doesn’t believe I am who I say I am and that the title company must be a scam. I give him my drivers license, tell him I’ve been doing this for 15 years and have signed over 10,000 signing appointments. He says “that’s what you say, I don’t know you from adam” His wife takes my drivers license and takes a picture with her cell phone! They say they don’t know who I am and they don’t want to sign. They deliberately let me drive all the way out there knowing full well they weren’t going to sign. I immediately notate all of this situation as I am closing it out in the App. I go home and follow up with an email to title in detail as well. 2 weeks later Vendor Management of the Title company sends me an email that the customer has sent in a complaint that I refused to wear a mask or identify myself. I had steam coming from my ears. I let them know to reflect back to the file from the night of the closing itself and review the messages sent via App and email. They replied back it would not affect my file.
I got paid the trip and print fee for this closing.
If you have phone issues you might try using the borrowers home phone or cell phone. They have a way to reach their lender and leave messages if no one answers.
It isn’t too common, or at least not for me with my client list, in which numbers are that way off. In this day and age the borrower should have seen the documents multiple times by the time they get to the signing. Post 2008 there may be some discrepancies but not stomping and slamming ones. You didn’t mention confirming with the signing for the appointment. I find that actually making voice contact can also help sometimes. I don’t go to closings without making actual contact with a human. No matter what the lender or title company says - your safety and sanity comes first and sometimes you may want to remove yourself from the appointment after speaking with the signer.
I completely agree with not going to the signer home without confirming with the signer. I was recently assigned a loan application in a very rural area. I usually do not call more than once a day. The first day I will usually also send a text. However, I accepted the signing the day of, so I reached out to the lender. The loan officer assured me (via group email) that the signer would be there. I asked for assurance that I would be paid the full fee if they were not, or would not sign. I received a semi-rude response from an administrative assistant stating “the Loan Officer said he would be there.” I chuckled to myself and decided to try to call the signer again, luckily he answered. They had no issue with me driving almost an hour based on their assurance, but would not assure that I would be paid. That is a red flag to me.
A few days after I responded to your post, I had a signing where the husband was not happy about refinancing and was not a borrower, just an owner. He kept getting up and leaving the room and was pretty aggressive. He refused to sign a couple documents that he needed to sign. I thought of your post, and I realized that years of martial arts training have made me comfortable defending myself and I think that definitely helps.
