I’m sure this has been discussed before but, I had an assignment that had signers name as John Doe, but all ids were John Doe Jr. it was a refi from a very large Mtg. Company. Signer had no ids that did not have Jr. On them. I reached out to title/signing order and lender. They refused to change the docs and told me they would add an AKA statement, which they did. My issue is that the Mtg/Deed of trust and other recordable docs are stand alone. I told them I could not, in good faith, notarize documents in a non-legal name ( I had had this same thing happen earlier in the week, the signer was a Jr. and his father who’s name was on the documents ( same name without the Jr. was in prison and was highly unethical, according to his son) that title company had no issues with changing the name on the docs.
So the lender/title told me they would get it re assigned. ( I had been given this order twice for the same issue) They were very rude and bullying. Since they told me they would not have the issue with another notary I did state that I would speak to the Lieutenant Governors’ office to hopefully get better information for either myself or for other notaries. any thoughts? commissioned in Utah
Good for you for standing your ground. We are there to verify the signer’s identification, based on what you were assessing, the ID did not match and you could not verify the ID.
Thank you so much for the encouraging remarks, I really felt like I was getting beat up this morning. It’s nice to have somebody stand for integrity with me. God bless you and yours always.
Oftentimes, ID and docs won’t match exactly. The likelihood that John Doe, Jr. on ID and John Doe on docs are the same person are very high but if the paperwork said John Doe, Jr. but the ID just said John Doe - that may not be the same person. So best practice - not a law, not a rule, but best practice is that more info on the ID and less on the docs means a high probability that it’s the same person. Also, loan packages have within it a Compliance Agreement (also called a Correction Agreement) which is a limited power of attorney that allows the TC or lender to correct typos and misspellings and other corrections. It does not allow them to change the terms of the loan package but it would have allowed them to add “Jr.” to the docs without the need for a redraw. So you could have completed the signing.
In the case of Jr,. I would be more concerned about John Doe on the document and John Doe Jr on the ID. I’d be worry that the Jr is trying to take improper advantage of an older father who might not be that sharp than the reverse.
Another legitimate scenario is that John Doe Jr bought something while the father was still alive, and the records for the asset say John Doe Jr. After the purchase, the father passed away and the son dropped the Jr. Now the son’s ID says just plain John Doe, and he wants to sell the asset.
Hi Ashton, no one is born as Senior (SR) while people are born as Junior (JR). Can a Jr, of his own choosing, simply drop Jr. I’m thinking no. If he was born Jr isn’t that his name? Can I decide, of my own choosing, to change my first name (legal name). Sure, I can use a different name casually.
I have never found a general-purpose law or rule governing names in the United States. Sure, you can find laws, rules, or form instructions about birth certificates, passports, driver licenses, etc. But they are not general purpose. I don’t think you’re going to have any luck finding a law that proves
Can a Jr, of his own choosing, simply drop Jr.? I’m thinking no.
I believe that except when dealing with some agency that has a specific law or rule, it’s a matter of custom rather than law. There is a section on the Emily Post website in; It stated:
A man with the same name as his father uses "Jr. after his name as long as his father is alive. He may either drop the suffix after his father’s death or, if he prefers, retain it so that he won’t be confused with his late father.
I’ve seen this many other places; this is just the only one I can find easily.
So my bottom line is I don’t have any rigid rule about what it says on the document vs. what it says on the ID. I just want to use all the available information to be reasonably sure the right person is signing the document.
Years ago, I had a Jr and the mother collude and try to refi a property out from under the Sr, I refused to complete the signing…yet at other times I have encountered a situation where there was a legitimate AKA situation and the signer had mixed IDs, DL and Passport did not match (Jr on one but not the other), but pictures and birthday did match, and he carried insurance cards and ids, and I was comfortable with them adding a clarifying deed and aka statement. Based on your limited description of what you encountered, you did the right thing in refusing…it was your stamp on the line…
A very wise and experienced notary, who is also an educator and author, advised that this is a major source of fraud. I have subsequently made sure that any juniors and subsequent namesakes provide ID or SOMETHING with the appropriate suffix prior to notarizing. I had no idea. Scary.
It comes down to ID verification and the totality of the evidence in front of the notary. Even with the best fake IDs, the notary isn’t the one verifying birthdate, SSN, tax returns, employment, or credit history — that’s part of the loan process, and that due diligence and burden of accuracy falls on the TC and lender.
For Jr. to successfully impersonate Sr., or vice versa, it wouldn’t just take fooling the notary — it would require every party in the chain (TC, lender, and definitely underwriting) to also miss the mismatch. That’s a lot more than one notary’s ID check failing — that’s multiple bad actors, or a whole lot of nobody doing their job.
Concur 
percent! 
