Lawyer instructed signer to post date Bills of Sale

The one thing that I know I’m not supposed to is to let the signer back date or post date documents. However, I conducted a signing where the lawyer called half way through and instructed the signer to post date 2 Bills of Sale. Everything else was dated for the day we signed. When I questioned the lawyer-- he said that the language in the date “effective on,” would allow for this. I did let title know. Are there exceptions to this seemingly black and white rule? Has anyone else had to question a lawyer? What other steps could I have taken?

Nothing beyond letting title know. You’re not a lawyer, let alone signer’s lawyer. Stay in your lane.


As long as those bills of sale didn’t need notarizing, just let the signers do what the attorney says to do…however If those bills of sale need notarizing, your cert must read the day they appeared before you so they can’t post-date them - how can they personally appear before you in the future…


That’s what I thought, however the rules are clear as crystal and I think this gets me hung up a lot!

If a signer’s attorney, or signer, refuses to complete closing documents as instructed by lender/closing agent, or the dates on a document look ‘hinky’, I:

Attempt to contact closing/sig1. ning firm at the table
2. If above not possible, advise signer/attorney verbally that I cannot make representations on behalf of lender/closing agent and that deviation from instructions may delay or inhibit transfer and/or funding
3. Write down the deviation in my notes (which I keep with my journal)
4. Email the lender/closing firm with a summary of issues

The language of any notary act may only bear the date on which it actually was performed. If a contract language has a different date, it may be intentionally so. Either way, I run the risk of unlicensed practice of law, or not getting paid, if I ‘color outside the lines’. If I follow directions to the letter, attempting to communicate if something seems wrong, I don’t ever have problems.

FYI, I’ve never had a closing bounced back or funding delayed for mis-execution (a few bounced because the NSA on the other side of a split closing screwed up, requiring a whole new set). It’s just a matter of consistently following the same rules, quality checks and communications.

I find very few lenders/closing agents to have difficulty with an NSA being over-communicative or too conscientious.


Bills of sale pertain to the Real Estate / purchase agreement documents and do not pertain to title or the loan. Therefore if their atty directed them to date differently it’s completely fine and you don’t need to concern yourself with that at all. Bills of sale do not need to be notarized- again, because they are documents related to the purchase agreement. I seriously recommend signing agents get better training in all aspects of the packages, the documents and things that come up. I’m reading these posts and realizing how little everyone knows about what these documents are they are signing with their borrowers - it’s not good.

What do you recommend?? Document training school? I guess that’s why we’re all here asking questions, because there is none that I know of. I’m aware of the documents I’m notarizing, but I was also told never to pre or post date documents. So now, there is an exception to that rule?

In all honesty I don’t think random notaries should even be allowed to do mortgage loan closings and after reading countless posts on this site, I am even more convinced. If the notary doesn’t know what the documents are, they should not be conducting the transaction. I am in the lending business and have been for 30 years - I am qualified. Title agents are qualified. A person with a notary commission and maybe a couple of online seminars, is not.

So you’ve just come on here to pass judgment and to boast your experience. Thanks for the help?

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jbot I get her point - here’s an example why - a notary doing a signing posted elsewhere that they got docs today with a different county on them than where they’d be signing- asked how to do this.

Now, if a notary doesn’t even know the answer to absolute basic questions like this, there’s a problem. If you read here long enough you’ll be asking the same questions yourself. I, personally, know that my background as a real estate closing paralegal has helped me tremendously in understanding what the docs are, what they mean and what must be done…how to handle things, answer questions, find answers, etc. I am baffled that anyone with no mortgage experience at all get into this business - and she’s right - a couple 2-3 hour online seminars do NOT cut it…not at all.

Don’t bite the hands that feed you good info - you’ll find that hand will be empty when you really need help.



I see both sides here, but the whole point of this Beginner Questions section is that it’s supposed to be a safe space for newbies to come and ask questions. As a newbie myself, I see a lot of veteran agents provide good insight, which is great. I am very thankful for this resource. But when newbies are judged for the questions they ask it defeats the point of this section and it might put a bitter taste in their mouth to use this resource again. I can see why some think only those with real estate/mortgage backgrounds should get into this field. But right now there is nothing on the books that makes that so. And people are getting in. And as evidenced by these threads, trying to learn the information that they can’t find anywhere else so they can avoid making mistakes. While I see their point, regardless of if I agree or not, this thread doesn’t seem like a super productive place to raise it.

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I believe the only way to know all loan documents by heart is to take real estate school for mortgage loan officers. It’s a certification, I would think so - yes, there is a way. Many may not take this route but it is an option.


Or even more helpful - get a job at a title company for a while - you’d learn a lot of the ins and outs of real estate closings there - even if all you did was package intake at first - IMO that’s one of the best ways to learn - you not only learn the docs but you also learn the law behind them.


I have seen new folks post both here and elsewhere - and some questions are obviously from people ho have done their research first, know their notary laws and just need some guidance with the handling of a 200 page loan package (God help them, I feel for them) - but when a notary has to ask “what do I do” when it comes to the venue on a certificate (Notary 101) I’m sorry, but that person either needs (a) more notary education or (b) another line of work.

Would you hire an electrician who had to ask you the difference between the red, black and white wires? I don’t think so. Anyone getting into this line of work needs to apply themselves, and as I’ve said ad nauseum many times before - you need to know your notary laws COLD and concentrate on being a great notary before you become a good signing agent.(thank you for this lesson Roger Rill).

I don’t mean to hurt anyone - and if I offend I apologize, but you’ll never get fairy tales out of me - you’ll get truthful answers. But it IS a safe place - and it always will be.


I agree! I spent a long time learning my state law, getting intensive training, and just researching and reading in general before I ever did my first signing. Educating yourself is important. I wasn’t attempting to say otherwise, sorry if it came off that way. And it seems that some put more effort into it than others, unfortunately. I just meant that even with good preparation and training, you will run into things you are unsure of, especially when you are new. And it’s good to have spaces were you can ask those questions without feeling dumb or judged. To me it seemed that the response from Iverson wasn’t very useful or productive to the question asked.


Understood - just a little hint - concentrate more on the content and less on the delivery - if the poster is spot on, as long as they’re not calling names and such take the info from the post and disregard the delivery - a lot of what’s posted anywhere on the internet, expression doesn’t always come across in the “typed” word.


I want to clarify I am not boasting my experience, I’m backing up my posts with proof I’m not just someone spewing random garbage because why would you trust anything I say if you don’t have knowledge of my background? And yes thank you for those indicating to pay attn to content because it’s true the typed info lacks my emotions which are not meant to harm or hurt. The poster asked what my suggestion is, I was honest. Also as someone who works with over 100 companies here & there the one continuous frustration for me is the nasty instructions that come over from these companies. They are pages and pages long with Do’s/Dont’s, threats of not being paid if such and such occurs. Why are they sending these? Because somewhere out there, there are unqualified signing agents making life difficult for the rest of us. Also I can’t urge this enough - but it only works if everyone teams up. For full package doc signings - over 100 pages, if agents are doing these for anything under $150 at a minimum you are short changing yourself and hurting the rest of us.

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NNA has training that gets you ready & even the Secretary of State site gives reference to getting all of your certifications.

I think some people are just uncomfortable. Having been in sticky corporate opinionated situations before I know things can happen, but if a person has never had a job like that - then THAT’S A RED FLAG that way more training is necessary.

I know my Nephew didn’t know that there were different “LEVELS” of Notary certifications, that was a surprise. I guess there are people who “check out every button on a site” and “read every line” and there are people who don’t. ;-/

What type of lawyer do you have? I mean, do you trust them, or is this your first time working with them? I’m guessing it’s the second choice. I don’t negatively mean this, but perhaps you should find another lawyer who can at least explain what they do and why certain things should be done and others shouldn’t? Because I believe they’re unskilled and have decided to become a lawyer after reading various information on legal company websites such as Charlotte Healthcare Fraud Defense Lawyers - - Oberheiden, P.C.. For real.

As multiple trained, credentialed, and experienced certified notary signing agents [CNSAs] (also known as business owners) have mentioned above, as a business owner providing these types of professional services, it’s so very important to ensure that one perform due diligence & research the Notary Cafe forum prior to creating a new thread to pose an often-asked query or to ask about basic notarial skills.

You do owe it to yourself to invest in training to ensure that you’re not only prepared, but that you are doing your level best to protect yourself, your notarial commission, & your business.

My personal experience:

When I initially started performing this work, I successfully completed MULTIPLE training/certification programs including Notary2Pro & NNA and many others. I have extensive experience in skill sets that require certification and recurrent evaluation tests; i.e., I’ve maintained my Project Management Professional [PMP] certification for more than 20 years. So, I understand what it usually entails and the elements that should be included within a comprehensive training program.

Regarding the NNA training specifically, it’s lacking across multiple topics & categories. Many NNA “graduates” choose to take additional training courses elsewhere, because they sense they’re insufficiently prepared. Their primer has errors throughout. Their hotline is less than reliable for accurate responses. The information provided is based upon California law & doesn’t represent the law within your specific State.

In my experience with undergoing the multiple training programs for CNSA certification, hands-down without question, Carol Ray’s Notary2Pro training programs are optimum in this industry. I’ve successfully completed ALL of the multiple training/certification programs that Carol offers through her company Notary2Pro. Her programs are thorough & detailed. The training she provides is timeless and valuable with no ‘expiration date’ on that info. Her training programs also prepare the business owner to operate a business. In addition, she offers Mentoring services for additional guidance and insights. I found those to be excellent & INVALUABLE when I was initially starting out in this business sector. The prices are surprisingly reasonable. :white_check_mark:

I’ve professionally compared the training/certification programs available at Notary2Pro with the others I’ve successfully completed. The ONLY training/certification program I recommend is Notary2Pro. Oh surely you can go into the YouTube database and find the odd video about various topics, but it would be difficult to encapsulate the comprehensive training and the business acumen included within the Notary2Pro training packages for such a reasonable price.

A list of companies that hire Notary2Pro graduates (with minimal or no experience) is provided to successful course graduates. => This list is pure GOLD! These companies understand the in-depth training provided by Carol and trust their clients with her N2P Graduates.

So, study up, refresh your notes, & let Carol know when your initial few signings are scheduled. She is a wonderful mentor & can be on standby in case you encounter difficulties or have questions during your first few signings. She’s the Best! Her support will help you Build your Confidence in providing this service. :trophy::white_check_mark:

In addition, Notary2Pro works diligently to keep this list up-to-date regarding vetting and viability. As we all know, some reliable clients can encounter financial difficulties and that, in turn, can negatively impact CNSAs directly.

Of course, your best bet would be to visit their website at , research, and make the choices appropriate for your situation. The training programs by Carol Ray are comprehensive & thorough. :sparkles::tada::sunglasses:

P.S. I receive no compensation or remuneration of any type or kind as a result of my first-hand experiential review above.