Hello. I would like some suggestion(s) on the following situation:
I am thinking of using/notarizing a Signature Specimen Form with buyer printed name and their signature/scribble. Where can I find such a form?
Your thoughts?
Thanks in advance for your suggestions and guidance.
A person’s signature IS ‘their signature’, regardless of how illegible it is–as long as they are consistent throughout the package. No need to get fancy.
Totally agree with @Arichter that a signature is just that, a signature. We are allowed to accept an “X” as a signature when someone is unable to write. There is no need to provide other alternatives. As the notary, we are there to act as a witness and verify that it is the signature of the individual before us, no matter their ability or our assessment of the same.
My state, Vermont, and odaversa’s state, New Jersey, have both passed RULONA. The continuing education I received indicated that any mark the signer makes with the intention of executing the record is an acceptable signature from the notary’s point of view.
It’s possible New Jersey has a different take on this. It’s also possible the recipient of the document might want it signed a certain way. If so, it’s up to the signer to negotiate with the recipient about what signature the recipient will take. It isn’t your job to find forms for the signer to complete, unless you are a lawyer.
“It isn’t your job to find forms for the signer to complete, unless you are a lawyer.”
Exactly!!!
Thank you for your feedback.
Thank you for your input.
Thank you, JoAnn, for your input.
Thank you, Gerard, for your feedback.
I do document in my journal of possible signature discrepancies, I had one where the signer broke their signing hand and offered to sign with it anyways with the cast and sling. He ended up signing with their opposite, but he signed both in my journal for my record. His ID scrawl was a scrawl either way so it ended up being what was more comfortable. I’ve also had older signers where we ended up having to take breaks and I noticed the signature was starting to become off, so I notated those as well. I had a person sign their Z’s as an E, as it had something to do with their love for the signature, I can’t really tell you that your signature is incorrect IF I let my Dr three last names sign with a circle for my prescriptions.
I just wanted to post my work arounds, as we can’t keep ID’s or copies of documents in my state, so IF something ever came back I want as much documentation or proof especially when I start the meeting seeing there may be an issue. If the signature gets to rough, if I have a spouse or another party who is with us I will ask them to sign off as witness in my journal for my record. And notate the reason I asked for witness. Whoever gets my journals when I go will have a good day to day of how my notary life was. I notate alot.
Thank you, Holly, for your experience and feedback.
There is not need to use a signing gadget for people to sign their names. Doing so will discredit their signature. You should NEVER alter a person’s signature. The way they sign is their signature as long as it is consistent throughout their signing. It should match their signature on their ID. If a person is unable to sign their name due to physical reasons, they can simply mark with an “X” if possible.
Thank you, Kelly, for your feedback and experience.
KellyNotaryTX’s post triggered some thoughts.
“There is not need to use a signing gadget for people to sign their names.” If they usually use some gadget for paper signings, I see no reason they shouldn’t use it for a paper record I’m about to notarize, unless there is a law or a requirement of the recipient to the contrary. If it’s an electronic record, some sort of gadget is mandatory.
“You should NEVER alter a person’s signature.” Does this mean the notary should never encourage the signer to sign differently than their customary way? I’d hesitate to encourage the signer to sign differently, but there could be some situations where I might. For example, the signer wants to sign a nice legible “Jane Doe” but the name in the record and on the ID is “Jane Jones”.
“The way they sign is their signature as long as it is consistent throughout their signing.” A person doesn’t have to have just one signature. Sometimes I use the given name “Gerard”. Sometimes I use “Gerry”. Sometimes I use “Geber”. All are lawful in the contexts where I use them.
“It should match their signature on their ID.” Nowadays signatures on IDs are often captured with a digital stylus, and look truly awful. Plus, I don’t even know what this means. Does it mean the letters in the ID signature should be the same letters in the signature on the record? What if the person breaks their wrist of their writing hand, which happened to me during a previous notary commission term?
Thank you, Gerard for your input.
“If they usually use some gadget for paper signings, I see no reason they shouldn’t use it for a paper record I’m about to notarize, unless there is a law or a requirement of the recipient to the contrary. If it’s an electronic record, some sort of gadget is mandatory.” If a digital signature is required for electronic signing then “Yes” use the gadget. However, a wet ink signature should “never” be altered. However the person signs is his/her signature, legible or not!
“Does this mean the notary should never encourage the signer to sign differently than their customary way? I’d hesitate to encourage the signer to sign differently, but there could be some situations where I might. For example, the signer wants to sign a nice legible “Jane Doe” but the name in the record and on the ID is “Jane Jones”.” I don’t understand how you got that question from my comment. It means just what it says, “NEVER alter a person’s signature”. Signing Ronald Jones vs Ronald T Jones is not altering a signature. It’s the person signing with their middle initial. It’s still their handwriting/signature. This actually is the response for all the questions/statements you made.
Bottom line is, however a person signs their name is their legal signature. There will be variations in their signature. The pen stroke and letter curves is what needs to stay fairly consistent. I sign my name with my middle initial 100% of the time. However, if a document requires me to place my full middle name,or not put my middle initial/name then that is still my signature because I wrote it and no one changed it or asked me to use different pen strokes to meet their personal needs. When I say, “Their signature should match the signature on their ID”, it means the “pen strokes” should be the same. Not necessarily 100% identical because we have variations in our writing each time we put pen/pencil to paper.
I hope this clears up my response for you Ashton.
KellyNotaryTX’s reply does indeed clear up much of my confusion. Apparently the message is the signer should always use the same style of handwriting when signing, no matter what letters are being written. In my case, the long hand that Mrs Hackett taught me in 3rd grade. That’s not a bad idea, but isn’t always what happens. We’ve already mentioned a person might have an injury that leads to a temporary change. Also, nowadays cursive isn’t taught in school anymore. So John Jones might learn cursive just for his signature, so when he is asked to sign a record with the pre-printed name Jack Jones, he has to sign in block letters.
As for the signature matching the ID, now that I’m no longer a signing agent, my identifications are usually based on personal knowledge. So of course I don’t know how the signature looks on the ID.
When it comes to a “legal signature” the Vermont legislature has answered that for me:
26 VSA § 5304. Definitions (20) “Signature” means a tangible symbol or an electronic signature that evidences the signing of a record.
It’s pretty sad that kids no longer know how to write in cursive and cannot sign their name. It’s like a foreign language or secret code these days. From my understanding, if a person is not able to sign their name then their written name is their signature. Go figure it would come to this these days!!!???
You are welcome! Glad I can be of assistance.
Coming up with a form is thinking outside of the box, nice idea but we cannot do it. We notaries are not allowed to create or add forms. A person’s legal signature is whatever mark they make whether legible or not. I have had signers use symbols in place of a legible name. It’s on their driver license, it’s their signature.
Every once in a while you will receive signing instructions that the signer must sign ‘exactly as the name is printed.’ If that person doesn’t customarily use three names to sign or even two full names, that is their signature. I take that also to mean whether or not ‘trustee’ is included or the POA signature requirements. If someone is signing with a POA there is no shortcut, the language is very clear. It is painful to watch a person with an injury or illness try to sign those documents. If your signer must use an X you will need two credible witnesses in California to sign the documents.
The one thing I might do when faces with a discrepancy in the name is look for a Signature Affidavit, some of them are expansive in the name variations, some are not and some leave blanks in case one should be added. If not required, there are no discrepancies, I do not ask my signers to volunteer any other names. In some cases, usually with women, they have acquired property under one name but are now married or divorced and no longer go by that name. This usually needs a consult with Escrow, but for good measure, I will have the person sign both names on the Signature Aff. I will make a note in my journal as well.
