What would you do in this case?

21

I agree with the law, but you missed to provide the bottom paragraph of it for WA state. Here it is:

Additional Information or Credentials: “A notarial officer may require an individual to provide additional information or identification credentials necessary to assure the officer of the identity of the individual” (RCW 42.45.050[3]).

The keywords are “may require”, which I did, because there was no signature to compare when she signs my notary book. Our state requires that record keeping. I need to make sure she is the person, although you can see it on the card, but I still like to be a little bit extra cautious, specifically if we’re personally and financially responsible for what we notarized.

1 Like
22

Yes, I have been in similar situations. First, the requirement for identification is government issued ID, not state specific. Secondly, you are going to meet those signers who a) will want to read everything and b) are argumentative. You should be prepared to deal with either, but responding with equal fire is not an option that should be in your arsenal. You always have an option to walk away from the signing.
In my most recent encounter with a problematic signer, he was a third party (son) not involved in the loan at all. Parents were non-native speakers of English, so he appointed himself to be their interpreter. However, they spoke English well enough to understand and engage with me on the signing. Problem #1, mother showed up without ID. Son wanted to go back home and take a picture of her ID and text it to me. I said that was not acceptable and if she could not retrieve her ID we may have to reschedule. They were gone about 30 minutes, while I proceeded with the signing with the dad, waiting for them to return. In the meantime, during some small talk with the father while they were gone, I discovered that they were taking out the loan to benefit the son in a new business. The second and bigger problem occurred when it came time to do the loan disbursement document. The son insisted on filling out the paperwork from information he had on his cell phone. But, when he couldn’t find the ABA # he produced a check to copy the ABA at the bottom of the check. When I asked if I could see the check, I noticed that the name on the account was a business name and not the name of either of the loan signers. I informed him through his father that since this was a personal and not a business loan the disbursement needed to be to one or both signers and the account to which funds were being disbursed needed to appear on the document and not different from the signer(s). The son got livid and the signing went downhill from there. I informed him that he was not a party to the loan and I would only be speaking to Mr. or Mrs. “X”. He informed me that not only was he their interpreter but that he was their representative and would be speaking for them. I informed him that no such person had been identified to me as an interested and/or accepted third party in this transaction and therefore I was not obligated to engage with him on the transaction and that I would not. I gave the father one more opportunity to provide account information for the loan disbursement, but he deferred to his son. I offered to call Title to get clarification/information (actually just for them to hear the response) but I got no answer. By now the son was belligerent, and he more or less threatened me and told me my only job was to sign the papers and not offer interpretations or opinions. When he told me I was too stupid to know my own job description, is when I started to pack up the papers. At this point the father wanted to take over the discussion to complete the signing. I informed him that he certainly could do that, but that it would be with another notary. I asked for the reference copies back from the son. He told me that the copies were theirs and that he would be keeping them. I informed him again that the loan and those papers had nothing to do with him and I would be taking them with me. He told me that if I took those papers and walked out he would be suing me. I stood and simply said, “give me the papers, please”, which he threw at me. It was difficult, but I never raised my voice, disrespected any party, nor acted in any way that would negatively reflect on the agency I was representing. I only got nervous when the son got up to follow me out the door. But he was just yelling. I pulled away from the location but only drove about two blocks. I needed to compose myself, but I needed to talk to someone about the incident. I was able to get in touch with someone from title who informed me that I should have left as soon as the son started to impose himself in the process. I had to tell the story a couple more times to the lender and title company, all of whom apologized for me having to go through the incident, but who also gave me kudos for representing them well. Of course, without asking, I got my full pay (thank goodness it was descent!). The company uses me often. And, like most of you, if you last in the business long enough you will have your share of tense encounters. You are expected to take the higher ground.

8 Likes
23

Oops! meant my response to be to @virove1 .

1 Like
24

@Tisino OOPS!

You may want to Edit the direction of the Reply.

It’s presumed that you’re responding to the OP @virove1 (not replying to me).

.

:swan:

25

Depends how much they are willing to pay. Remember that you’re also incurring additional driving time and fuel cost. Depending on where your next appointment is that you’re coming back from, that could be significant.

1 Like
26

@virove1, Yes, I have definitely encountered some difficult signers, and I can attest that navigating these situations feels like walking a fine line, requiring a delicate balance of professionalism and understanding. It is absolutely crucial to maintain a calm and objective demeanor while also recognizing and respecting the signer(s)’s inherent right to thoroughly review every page of the documents, even though, realistically, I always hope they don’t feel the need to do so. My overarching priority is always to avoid, at all costs, giving even the slightest perception of being coercive or applying any undue pressure, which is why I always endeavor to approach each signing with patience, empathy, and a genuine desire to facilitate a smooth process. Ultimately, not every signer is going to be a good fit, whether the issues stem from personality clashes, differing expectations, or simply an incompatibility of approaches; and in those instances, I firmly believe that it’s sometimes necessary to disengage gracefully. I’ve learned that it’s simply not worth jeopardizing my reputation or potentially facing a complaint with the state or even more serious legal repercussions down the road. Therefore, with even the slightest indication of pushback or resistance during the signing process, I will decisively disengage, promptly inform the hiring company of my decision, and candidly provide them with a clear and concise explanation for my departure, always maintaining a professional and objective tone. I’ll share a couple of experiences to illustrate this approach. During the COVID-19 pandemic, I had barely stepped out of my car when the wife was standing outside on the sidewalk towards their driveway. She stated that her husband didn’t wish to wear a facemask, due to the fact I have a respiratory condition. I had no problem conveying that I would inform the hiring company and they should be in touch, and I got back in my car and left. Another time, I actually watched a husband and wife get into an argument because the wife wanted to read every page of an 189-page loan package. However, there was a point where I did intercede, stating that if I felt if both parties couldn’t come to an agreement, I would not be able to notarize any documents because no signer can feel they are being forced to do anything during the signing process. I got the assignment completed because the husband was able to reason with his wife. We are dealing with human beings and these things will happen from time to time, it’s just human nature. By the way, you should not had to apologize for doing your service. I will never beg or argue with anyone, where I am performing a service for anyone. This is a free country and it’s okay to part ways. But always document to cover yourself…

6 Likes
27

Well…
I would not have accepted a signing on a Saturday if I felt like it was an imposition to my family time.
I would have been happy to meet in a coffee shop as public places are preferrable to me.
I would have accepted her Government issued ID as it meets all state requirements.
I wouldn’t have argued, asked her to move or tried to tell them they had 3 days to read the documents.
In all my years of signing I can say I have never created an air of tension at the table. Almost in all cases, once a signer has read through several of the documents they are content to move along with signing and even with skimming the documents, the process can be completed in an hour.
Creating an air of tension never helps, staying professional and accomodating does. When meeting at public places, arrive early enough to ensure there is adequate seating and set the table up the way you want it. Some signings go quickly and some do not. It is important to stay neutral through the process.

8 Likes
28

I had a reverse 2 weeks ago, signer told me not to come because he never got the docs in time so he could read. I sent that to the SS and POOF the docs showed up in his inbox. The signing also was very unproblematic. He called his LO a few times, but that’s what they are supposed to do right. He was a spicy gentleman, but like I said, in the signing went fine. I was ELATED they sent him the docs timely!

2 Likes
29

If the signer(s) are being unreasonable, I have no problem with walking away. I’m not there to be abused by them.

2 Likes
30

Did anything like that happen to you?

If you do this long enough, yes

What would you do, or have done in this kind of situation?

From the start, you lost control of the signing.

Instead of telling them that your only job is to obtain signatures you chose to start explaining legal documents to a paralegal.

Would you have left earlier than the 40 minutes I spent there?

Yes, I’ve been through in 20 minutes. Considering the wife had been arranging a loan, from the moment I sat down, I would’ve handed them all the documents and blue pens and watched them sign, unstack, and check for mistakes, notarize the legals, and thank them for their time.

Keep in mind, I apologized at the beginning telling them I would stay there 3 hours to read and sign, and asked them to continue.

Never apologize unless you’re late. Your #1 job is to obtain signatures, notarize the legal documents, and leave.

How would you have handled that situation?

I would’ve accepted that passport card.

4 Likes
31

Daniella, State of Washington accepts valid U.S. PASSPORT CARDS as proof of identity. Documents for proof of identity | Washington State Department of Licensing

As a notary public, if there is an issue with the first form of ID they are providing to us (such as if it is expired, damaged, illegible, or appears tampered with, etc), yes of course we can require the signer to provide us additional ID. Otherwise no need to make this harder than it has to be for the signers or for the notary.

When calling to confirm appointments with my signers, I also find it helpful to remind them to present me 2 forms of government ID – such as a drivers license and a passport, or drivers license and SSN card, passport card and passport, or passport card and SSNS, passport card and drivers license… so on.

But for completing my notary journal, just ONE valid government issued photo ID is legally required. And I know a valid U.S. passport card certainly fulfills that legal requirement. And I would note in my notary journal the secondary ID they provided me.

RCW 42.45.050

Identification of individual.

(1) A notarial officer has personal knowledge of the identity of an individual appearing before the officer if the individual is personally known to the officer through dealings sufficient to provide reasonable certainty that the individual has the identity claimed.

(2) A notarial officer has satisfactory evidence of the identity of an individual appearing before the officer if the officer can identify the individual:

(a) By means of:

(i) A passport, driver’s license, or government-issued nondriver identification card, which is current or expired not more than three years before performance of the notarial act; or

(ii) Another form of government identification issued to an individual, which is current or expired not more than three years before performance of the notarial act, contains the signature or a photograph of the individual, and is satisfactory to the officer; or

(b) By a verification on oath or affirmation of a credible witness personally appearing before the officer and personally known to the officer and who provides satisfactory evidence of his or her identity as described in (a) of this subsection.

(3) A notarial officer may require an individual to provide additional information or identification credentials necessary to assure the officer of the identity of the individual.

Daniella, please call our Washington Notary Division at 360-664-1550 if you still do not believe it.

32

Precisely. Making a signing unnecessarily difficult for their signer is a great way to be removed from their vendor list. On top of the hostility, if there was nothing wrong with the valid passport card she was provided as ID, demanding further IDs from the signers only serves to further provoke/antagonize. Daniella is new and I understand she just wants to be careful. She gave the scenario of what happened and asked our opinions and now does not much like what she is hearing. We were all new in the beginning. It would be smart for her to learn from this and move on.

4 Likes
33

@virove1 :white_check_mark: Excellent! :white_check_mark:

.

:swan:

34

Thanks, I had no other way to verify the signer’s signature ulness she show me a driver license. The passport card has no signature like the passport does. This is why I asked for it. She drove to the location so she had it available.

1 Like
35

I reported it to the signing company and all was ok. I value the fedback.

1 Like
36

Hi Carmen, (3) above is what geve me the right to request the aditional ID for verification. I am allowed to do that in WA state if I feel I need it. It was a formality that blew up out of proportion. She might have been upset at something prior to that. Given the fact that even when giving me the passport card she kind of slapped it with an attitute at the table before I even aasked for the driver license, may be an idication for that.

37

Hi Daniella, I get that your signer had an attitude to begin with. It happens with signers for reasons we may not know or understand. We have all encountered a signer who acted like they had a huge chip on their shoulders. Not fun. Very sorry it happened with you and can imagine it must have been very stressful. But my friend, I am trying to tell you in the kindest way possible that you were wrong in this scenario.

Think of it this way: if a valid U.S. passport card is good enough for TSA/Homeland Security to identify a traveler flying domestically or for a U.S. citizen to get into or out of Canada, then it is certainly good enough to prove their ID to you as a notary public. If a valid U.S. passport card is good enough for a person to be able to open a U.S. bank account, it is good enough for you as a notary signing agent.

I hope you will take a minute to call our state notary commission as I suggested. They can explain to you precisely why a valid U.S. passport or passport card is sufficient to prove identity, (even thought it doesn’t contain the signer’s signature).

To the other brand new notary signing agents in Washington who may be reading this thread, wondering what to do if this ever happens to you: Please keep in mind that a U.S. passport or passport card is FEDERAL ID; a drivers license is STATE ID. It is harder to obtain federal ID than state. Both IDs, if valid, are quite sufficient, although a Federal ID carry more weight, IMHO.)

A valid U.S. passport OR U.S. passport card is quite sufficient for you to identify a signer for your notary journal! Please don’t poke the bear by telling your signer it is not enough and then argue when they disagree and/or become more upset. Yes, sure, our state law gives us notaries “the power” to demand to see other forms of ID – but we should only do that if we see with our own eyes that something is WRONG with the ID they are presenting to us (such as if the photo and details don’t match person in front of you, or its expired more than 3 years, illegible, damaged, etc.)

Otherwise please don’t do that to your signers. Don’t compound the problem. If what they are presenting to you is VALID state or federal government issued ID, do not antagonize your signer just to be on the “safe side” because you are new or because you can. Things can escalate quickly, as it did for this notary.

If this ever happens to you and if you are still in doubt, stay pleasant, stay calm, stay professional. Pause the signing so you can call your hiring company to confirm what they want the signers to present as ID for the loan signing. Or if it is a rules question for you, call Washington Notary Division at 360-664-1550 for clarification. If the signing is taking place outside of regular hours, you can also call try calling Rebecca Jacobs at Attorney & Notary Supply (425) 271-6353 for further clarification. (Rebecca has provided Notary Public training in Washington for 20+ years.)

Wish you the best.

5 Likes
38

@Carmen_Lane What a great response, Carmen. Thank you for your time and the information.

2 Likes
39

Did they not get the docs in an email. I always start with. “Most of these forms are boilerplate for the purpose of the loan. The important parts ate the numbers, addresses, social security numbers, etc.” I still have had people read them. BTW, a passport has a photo, and as such is a legal id. Maybe her license was suspended. Ive closed loans with only a passport when someone did not have a license.

1 Like
40

I don’t mean to be facetious, but maybe she doesn’t like how she looks on the driver’s license. I have had signers hand me a passport (or a passport card) rather than a driver’s license when there was no doubt that they had one. Maybe she was embarrassed that the driver’s license showed her weight? I don’t question it. As long as it’s a legal form of ID, I just go with the flow. Why make things harder than they need to be?

2 Likes