What would you do in this case?

I accepted a signing this Saturday, instead of having time with my family. It was to be done in a coffee place, which turned out to be very busy, noisy and almost no parking, so the wife was late for that teason.

She started having attitude when I asked her to give me her driver’s license, instead of her passport card. She clearly was unhappy and was reasoning with me, that she works at a law office (not as an attorney). According to her, there’s nothing best to prove somebody’s identity than a passport. I replied that for notary purposes I require a driver’s license or state ID as I can see physical description for identification and I take my job seriously as well as have personal liability to what I notarize.

I saw her frowny-face already but I carried on. Then I asked her to move, so she and her husband are all on the same side of the table. It was noisy and I didn’t want to yell so both can hear me at either side. She got visibly even more aggravated. At the very first page, which was the privacy notice, she started reading. After a minute I said that they will have 3 days of a recision time, and they can read all the pages at home. I said that I will have them focus reading pages that are of greater importance to the loan. I made a joke saying I’m already getting cold from the air conditioner here and reading all the pages, total of 140, will take about 3 hours, based past experience. She looked at me really upset, and said “I will not sign anything that I don’t read, in my practice at work, I have found already eight mistakes made by reading the documents”. She kept arguing how dare I am telling her not to read all of the documents. I said I didn’t say not to read them but that I said I will have you focused on the important ones, but hey I can stay here for 3 hours if you think that’s what needs to be done She did not take that and kept arguing back and forth with me not letting her read every page.

Now it became very unpleasant atmosphere and she declared she doesn’t like me and that she wants to cancel the signing. Her husband was the only one on the loan and pleading to her that she continues with signing. She went outside, but I kept staying there trying to explain things to him about the loan deadlines, interest lock etc and that’s fine with me to leave. I told him that they have to request the documents from the lender so they can read them entirely, because we are scheduled for 1 hour visit. She came back again, continued arguing with me more, having attitude at which point I was now very upset. I said I don’t like how you are treating me. I’m fine leaving and you can have another notary. She said, yes there’s plenty of them out there and in my office. I said, yes that’s correct but they’re not trained to do what we’re doing. Then she said she doesn’t like me having all her personal information. I said well, I am background check and I gave them my business card that states that fact. Then I advise her husband to consider asking for a notary that can spend 3 hours doing the signing with them if neded, then I left.

Did anything like that hapened to you?
What would you do, or have done in this kind of situation?
Would you have left earlier that the 40 min I spent there?

Keep in mind, I apologized at the beginning telling them I wlil stay there 3 hours to read and saign and asked them to continue.

How would have handled that situation?

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If I lived in a state that didn’t let notaries take passport cards as ID, I’d move.

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In my experience, the signers that start out as “readers” decide after the first few pages that it’s too time-consuming to do it that way and settle into a routine where they just glance at the document and sign. I’ve learned that it’s best not to try to coerce them into doing anything that they don’t want to do. If they complain to the title company or lender about you, that could impact your future business. My advice is to just go with the flow, and things will usually work themselves out.

As far as the ID is concerned, a passport is a valid ID. You can ask for a drivers license but they don’t have to give it to you if they would rather use a passport.

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Hi Daniela, you are in Washington state like me and I am sorry to say you are mistaken about Washington rules regarding identifying your signers. You may absolutely accept a person’s passport (or passport card) as ID in Washington (provided it is not expired more than 3 years.)

Please see:

RCW 42.45.050

You are new and mistakes happen. Really the best thing you can do is to learn from this whole experience and move on.

Review our state notary handbook and the RCWs for Washington notaries. I am in Olympia. Feel free to call me, OK?

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@virove1 My direct experience mirrors the scenario @steve11 identified within the excerpt above.

This situation is simply one more reason I often refer Notary Cafe members to the Guideline for Creating Your Schedule of Fees.

The process guides each business owner in the determination of an appropriate Fee for providing their professional services. The calculated Fee includes their individual expenses & pricing within their region based on local costs.

If an appropriate Fee is calculated, there is less pressure on you to accelerate the process, due to a Low-Ball Fee.

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I often express the following via threads/posts on the Notary Cafe forum:

  • Always employ critical thinking skills
  • Make decisions from a business owner viewpoint (not an employee)
  • Research & follow the Regulations & Statues within your own State for owning, launching, & operating a business
  • Utilize your individual State Notarial Handbook for insights & guidance for establishment of a foundational baseline to operate from for your business decisions
  • Undergo a reputable professional training & certification program; i.e., Notary2Pro
  • Review the Signing Order [SO] instructions in detail prior to reaching out to the hiring entity for clarifications
  • Seek out the guidance & support of fellow business owners via a reliable & professional online format; i.e., Notary Cafe

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GENERAL DECISION GUIDELINE:

  1. Employ critical thinking skills
  2. Consider the source
  3. Evaluate the potential ulterior motive
  4. Trust your instincts

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Certainly, it’s BEST to honor & follow the Guidelines, Rules, & Regulations found within the Notarial Handbook for your State.

That should be your baseline to operate from to ensure that you (as a Business Owner) follow the accurate protocol.

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:swan:

I agree with the other posters. U. S. Passport is an acceptable form of ID.

Insofar as a signer wanting to read their documents, let them. It’s their right. It’s their loan or sale. My experience is same as Steve’s. I once had a borrower who was refinancing 4 different investment properties at the same time. He started out with reading every page. After about 10 minutes, he would just listen to my description of doc, glance at first page and sign (and date, if necessary). We were done with all 4 properties in less than 2 hours. :slight_smile:

This is one of the reasons that we quote professional fees – because we know what we’re doing and we allow signers the time necessary to execute their documents. A $80 fee does not cover my expertise nor my time.

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Not the way you did. Agree with above posters. In my 30+ years, I’ve had 2 people who really did read every page. I was requested by 1 of them for a 2nd Refi, and I declined stating why (reader…2 1/2 hrs. at table). Title then said they’d pay me whatever I wanted–and did.

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Agree with above posters too - not sure I would have agreed to sit for 3 hours, but I most definitely would have called hiring party when she stalked off to explain situation to make sure you’re going to be adequately compensated for this 3 hour ordeal.

Also, one other thing - the Privacy Notice is never the first thing I ever presented to people. My order was the HUD/CD then then Note - if the wheels are going to fall off the bus, that’s when they usually go.

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Acceptable ID is described in the Patriot Act form. I take what they hand me if it’s listed on the patriot act and accepted by the state. Today I accepted the temporary paper ID accompanied by the expired physical ID because in my state it’s acceptable.

A signer is allowed to read every word of every document if that’s what they want to do. You’re out of line for suggesting they can read it later and just cancel if they don’t like what they read. You were entirely incorrect to say that.

There is never a guarantee a visit will be only an hour. I did a commercial signing with a man buying a seven million dollar property. He read every single word it took 3 hours. I stepped out and moved a following appointment because it was clear I would not be on time. At no time would I suggest to someone they cannot take the time to read.

I would have had no problem closing the loan. In my opinion your actions weren’t acceptable.

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Yes, a passport is a valid ID, but this was a passport CARD, not a passport and did not have a signature on it. I couldn’t properly identify her. As pet our state law I can request additional ID, which I did.

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Thus was a passport CARD, not actual passport and doesn’t have a signature to properly identity her.

Thanks, here is the rest of the law, alowing me to request additional ID. A passport card doesn’t have signature on it , so for me is a big NO if presented by itself only.

Additional Information or Credentials: “A notarial officer may require an individual to provide additional information or identification credentials necessary to assure the officer of the identity of the individual” (RCW 42.45.050[3]).

This was not a passport but a passport card which has no signature so this is not enough to identify the person according to our line of work.

I just spoke with the title company and they told me that if it takes longer and I’m late for my next appointment, I can request to return later and they will pay me additional fee. This is something for all of us to keep in mind if needed. It may not work for every title company but it’s good to keep in mind.

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@virove1 Excellent! Most won’t extend that courtesy. Good for you!

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Sorry my post is too long but I did explain that I offered to stay even if it’s takes longer. She was already upset so I’m assuming there may have been something between both of them, for her to refuse to stay for the signing even after he asked her to do so. He was the primary on the loan she was just signing the marital documentsas request by our state.

Sadly I know that so that’s why I never asked for it but that specific one I’ll keep in mind and always asking if it happens again :slight_smile:

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@virove1 It’s Great :partying_face: that this option was presented to you.

In my direct experience, I’ve received the grace of this type of response & simply L O V E D it. Very grateful!

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Yes! You were very clear in your explanation.

:folded_hands: Thank You :folded_hands: for the details in your Original Post [OP] & for returning to provide updates. :sparkles: You’re Awesome! :sparkles:

Truly a CHALLENGING scenario.

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The wonderful component of this situation is that you shared it with the Notary Cafe members & have been of support to them. Your thread will help nearly all Notary Cafe members by allowing them to learn vicariously via your direct experience. :white_check_mark:

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:swan:

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I copied this from the Washington State Notary Public Guide, page 26

RCW 42.45.050
Identification of individual.
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(ii) Another form of government identification issued to an individual, which is current or expired not more than three years before performance of the notarial act, contains the signature or a photograph of the individual, and is satisfactory to the officer; or

Since Washington and my state, Vermont, both passed RULONA, I expect the law in our two states to be the same. This passage is word-for-word identical to 26 V.S.A. § 5365(a)(b)(1)(B).
It says signature OR photograph. There is a photograph on a passport card, so that requirement is fulfilled. It also has to be satisfactory to you.

You can reject it if you want. But the title or hiring company can decide the way you exercise your discretion is just to picky and put you on their do-no-use list.

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@ashton, LOL… Oh boy! I have to be careful reading your comments, I almost choke sipping a cup of tea…

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