Why are signing services comfortable with trying to bully LSAs? Today, I had a signing service attempt to force me to become a witness in a loan signing assignment. They attempted to charge me with making errors in a loan package. The so-called “errors” were not signing as a witness on some of the loan documents. They presented special instructions that were ambiguous and incomplete. All their communications were via email, no phone calls. To me, that was a red flag. After numerous requests for a phone call, the representative and supervisor both finally called. The supervisor stated one of those most popular lines - “All the other loan signing agents didn’t have a problem with being a witness”. I responded, that maybe so, until it becomes a legal matter, and they are called to court. In Florida, it is legal for a Notary Public to act as a witness on documents. If the Notary Public does not mind wearing two “hats”, being a private citizen and Public Official at the same time. Personally, I found wearing one “hat” is enough for me, staying in the capacity of being a Public Official and maintaining being impartial in any notarial acts. Just because everyone else does something, doesn’t make it best practice for Notary Publics. It just means more potential exposure to the Notary Public/LSA. If an LSA/Notary Public doesn’t feel comfortable doing something, do not be bullied into doing something that makes you feel uncomfortable. Remember, it’s you that must answer for your actions, not the title company, signing services. or other Notary Publics/LSAs.
Update on the discussion of Notary Public being witnesses:
Can a Notary be a document witness?
If you are notarizing a signature on the document, can you also be a document witness? The answer is yes if you’re a Connecticut or Florida Notary.
Georgia and Kansas prohibit Notaries from also acting as document witnesses. Maine strongly advises against notarizing a signature and being a document witness for the same transaction.
In every other state where specific rules are not provided, such as California, Oregon and Texas, the safest course is to turn down requests to both notarize the signature and act as a document witness.
Witnessing a document may require you to sign the document — which could create a conflict of interest if you are asked to notarize other signatures on the same document. The easiest way to avoid possible conflicts is to choose to act officially as a Notary or privately as a document witness — but not both for the same transaction.
LindaH, Thank you for sharing your counsel. As Notary Public, we have to consider any potential liability exposure, when executing notarial acts. After speaking with an attorney, who was a Notary Public as well. The attorney explained the pros and cons of being a witness and LSA in the loan signing process. For instance, we are first and foremost a Public Official that witness people’s signatures on documents. When we act outside of the notarial block, we are acting in the capacity as a private citizen. If the document that we witness as a private citizen is involved in any legal proceedings, we can be called to give deposition and subjective to any potential consequences. But if we maintain the status as a Public Official, we maintain our impartiality and limit any potential consequences. It’s a judgement decision, I have to do what is best for me. At the end of the day, title companies, lenders, or signing services will not provide us any legal counsel, should we have to defend ourselves in the legal system. We surely, can not tell the judge, “All the other LSAs act as witnesses too”. That’s will not play well with the judge as a legal defense. By the way, all the title companies and signing services I previously worked with never had a problem with my position. If any bridge was burned, it’s a two-way street. What happened in that situation, it exposed the ambiguity of the signing company’s signing instructions and communication methods. But trying to bully a LSA, isn’t the way a company should transact business. Those types of companies, I will not work with by choice.
I’m with LindaH on this. I’m in Colorado, but I have completed signings for Florida properties. I’m already there as a Notary Public and as a Notary Signing Agent, adding a third hat as a witness does not complicate my role or position. We already sign the USA Patriot Act Form, which in my training I was taught to not sign this document using Notary Public as my title. My suggestion is for you to seek out a Florida real estate attorney to answer the question about Notaries Public signing as a witness. If the attorney says you should not do it, then present that to the signing service. If the attorney says no legal liability, then write a heartfelt apology to the signing service. But, feeling uncomfortable is not a defensible position.
Terry, respectfully I once didn’t have a problem being a witness. But after speaking with a fellow Notary Public, that was an Attorney as well. I decided to take a different position on being a witness. I now ask the signers to bring their on witness(es). Beautiful thing about our country is the freedom of choice. What I have learned in this profession, there’s a lot of “gray areas” in the state’s statutes. Therefore, there are a lot of landmines to step on. As a layperson that doesn’t have a law degree. I have to seek out legal guidance and adhere their advice in my own decision making. I choose not to “march to the piper tone”, just because other LSAs/Notary Publics does it that way.
The law is overwhelmingly made up of gray. Obviously, I don’t know what the attorney/Notary Public told you, but having a legal opinion from an attorney seems different than ‘feeling uncomfortable.’ You’re absolutely correct about having freedom of choice as long as you remember the signing service also has freedom of choice, which they may exercise by not calling you for future signings. The most important point, at least to me, is that we have to look in a mirror and like and live with the person we see staring back at us.
Terry, so true about “the person in the mirror”. I learned years ago, set your standards and keep an open mind. As one door close, another door comes open. I do not live in the fear of loss. I live in the aspect of having a positive mindset and taking the actions that leads towards having abundance. My phone was ringing before that company emailed. I have built a track record of being a professional, who produces a high level of quality of work.
So true because when you just pose a question without sitting down for a discussion where they can understand the whole situation, they do not want to be tied to a potentially inaccurate response.
As someone who closes sellers packages in Florida from Pennsylvania, I am hard pressed finding one witness let alone two. I have no issues signing as a witness as I have signed other documents not as a notary (Patriot Act for example). Just my two cents.
In NC we cannot act in both capacities. They need to pick one. Either you want me to be a Notary Public on this document or act as a witness. I am not making the choice. I leave that up to the customer or the signing service. Also, if they can’t understand that I am not able to notarize my OWN signature on a document, I tell them to reassign. Not worth losing my commission over. This always happens when the property is located in FL!
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Being a witness on a mortgage, or most other closing documents, has nothing to do with notarizing your own signature. The only time that may come into play is a Self-Proving Affidavit on a Will or maybe other trust documents.
I have been asked by several signing companies for FL properties to act as both the Notary and a Witness on a Deed of Trust/Mortgage which is the same document. So my statement is still the same for MY state.
However, if your SOS and statutes have prohibited you from acting as both witness AND notary, then you go with that. If the company argues it, send them a copy of that regulation-
This is a great forum that allows Notaries and LSAs to share experiences and thoughts. Newbies can get a better understanding of this industry. In this business, there’s no onboarding processes or on the job training programs. All we have are the states statutes to adhere too and basic paid training programs/courses, such as NNA, American Association of Notaries, or etc. Each individual Notary/LSA decides on how to perform their services. Keep in mind, hiring companies have a vested interests in getting loan documents completed, even when having LSAs perform notarial acts working in the “gray areas” of their state’s statutes. Here’s the truth of the matter, I do not have a law degree or the knowledge of interpreting state’s statutes. We have to be fully aware of understanding the repercussions of our notarial actions. But what I do know, it’s forums like this one that allow us to connect with knowledgeable professionals. Along the way, I have met knowledgeable people that helped me to make better decisions on operating my business. Such knowledge will empowers us not to be bullied by companies or customers. Allow me to make it clear, I never stated that a Florida Notary Public could not be a witness. Personally, I just rather not act as a private citizen as a witness and a Notary Public/LSA at the same time. Therefore, companies cannot force me to be a witness, when performing the notarial acts. If the company wants a witness for their loan packages, the company can ask the signers to get their own witnesses and I will complete the assignment accordingly. Of course, we all have to make our own decisions in these types of matters.
Unless some one shows me a statute or government directive prohibiting an action which was requested by my customer, I will perform the action. Personal preference can be expensive and is an indication that I matter more than the customer.
Yes, jnewberry it can be “expensive”. I just do not want to step on a “landmine” trying to appease a customer, by working in a “gray” areas. In this topic for discussion, it shows there’s are no standardization in the Notary Public/LSA field. Each state’s notarial statutes have “gray” areas, in some situation, things are just left open without any guidance. This can expose a Notary Public/LSA to undue legal or liability risks. Over the years, I have learned that we have to be our own advocates in protecting ourselves. Have you ever read a E&O policy, those insurance companies have so many legalese statements written in those policies. It’s a slippery slope, yes leal proceeding or denied E&O claims can be a very expensive experience. Over the years I have worked with companies, that accepted my position of not being a witness. I still get phone calls from those companies.
If you accept a signing for a state that requires a witness, you will sign as both the notary and the witness. It’s not bullying, it’s common knowledge in the business. If you’re not comfortable signing as a witness then turn down the assignment. You can cause harm by not signing off on a deed as the witness. It can’t be recorded. You are putting yourself in harm’s way. If the lender requires the completed deed for funding then you have stopped the funding process.
