What was your worst refi closing? I did a VA closing this past Saturday that was the largest page count and the longest to execute. It was 172 pages containing 21 notarizations, 57 signature/date areas and 5 places for initials. The husband was the veteran and had most of the work to do, but his wife was on the title so she had to be there as well. They had his ex wife listed on the quitclaim and that sent him into a rage. The privacy policy page was supposed to continue to the next page where they would sign but it was left blank. They had duplicates and triplicates of forms that were for internal use and wanted a signed original of each. Overall it was one of the more stressful closings that I have experienced. The signing service did up my fee by $20 because of the page count. I have filed the title company name away in my mind and have worked for them twice. My first and my last time.
Sounds normal for some of the lenders.
@takenotenotaryservices 
Congratulations! That’s quite a bit of work!
A recent extensively large file (last year) 271 pages (one document package => total 542 pages printed), 19 notarizations that was a Veteran’s Administration [VA] Refinance.
It took nearly 2 hours to successfully complete all the executions. 
All 3 of us were ELATED when everything was complete! 
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Those are extensive. I am not sure they are worth the fee. This title company wanted a a specific Fed-Ex package that the local Fed-Ex office didn’t have and then wanted a picture of the docs and the envelope together before the drop was made. I am sure there are title companies that this is there standard with VA refi’s, but having the same document notarized three times is a bit extreme to me. There were 2 complete loan applications, two Patriot Acts and three valuation affidavits that the borrower had to fill in their “best guess” as the value of the transaction. This was just my first one like that, so it felt a little much. In comparison the last VA refi I did was 109 pages and was quick and easy.
@takenotenotaryservices Like many items within this business sector
===>>> It’s contingent upon who the hiring entity/client is regarding myriad variables.
Another reason I often express that It’s important to know one’s Worth!
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FYI: Later today I have a Refinance (not a VA loan) scheduled that is 181 pages (one set) with no duplicates & no appraisal . . . 
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I had one of those like cNsa5 … FHA purchase loan, 280 pages, 28 notarizations…placed the docs on the table and borrowers took one look at it and said "just keep flipping .. ". LOL. I did take the time to state each doc but these signers were great…had IDs ready, great sense of humor and so nice. I WAS paid well for that…but that was back in the day when we had the respect of the companies and they knew what we were facing and treated us accordingly.
You did two transactions for the price of one and should have requested more than $20. The quitclaim deed is a separate transaction that is not a refi, and, at least in my state, requires multiple separate documents for filing. I have recently experienced a number of closings where the vendor understated the scope of the work on their initial offer. I believe this is a deliberate attempt to undercut fees in hopes we will grin and bear it once we’ve already accepted an assignment. Some vendors are vague about details of their offer, and I have learned to ask questions before I accept those. They don’t always answer, but when they don’t, it reinforces my belief they have something to hide. .
The quitclaim deed was part of the refi process because of a previous marriage for the borrower. His ex-wife was on the deed. This lender is different from other lender’s refi’s I have done, but talking with the signing service they aren’t the worst that they service. They have another lender who’s refi package is 300 pages. Refi packages range from $80 to $125 in my area. Honestly, I have done sellers only packages that pay as good or better, so refi’s are low on my list of signings. I will take it if I don’t have anything else going on.
@thenotariusgk Yes, absolutely correct.
This identical scenario was also identified within a thread on Notary Cafe forum earlier today.
Well, you can also say a divorce was part of the refi process, but that doesn’t make that part of your work. You can have a refi without a QC (as most are), and you can have a QC without a refi, and that’s why they are 2 different jobs.
Sometimes someone took title without the spouse before getting married, so a QC is in a refinance because the Deed is re-done in both names. That refi is one transaction. With a QC and a Deed and considering that as two transactions in one refinance is trying to milk the system in my opinion.
you’re right, and I’m beginning to have the courage to point it out and demand double fees
172 pages isn’t especially large (approaching or over 200 pages is usually considered large). However, the 21 notarizations sounds really heavy. You can say you’ll never work for that title company again, but in the heat of responding to an offer that’s texted to you, who the title company is may not be evident and you won’t know until after you get the confirmation.
You are entitled to your opinion. If you accept the same fee for a job that is 2 miles away as a job that is 40 miles away, that is your decision, but it is not mine. In my state any deed change involves multiple documents that need to be filled out, not just signed, and a QC can easily add another 20 minutes or more to the job. Who is milking who when it’s not disclosed in the offering?
I speak specifically of a refinance that has a Quit Claim Deed because the Deed changes from a single person to a married couple. How it takes more than 5 minutes I don’t really know. In my state a Quit Claim Deed is signed when someone obtains a property as a single person and then refinances as a married person and without a spousal waiver a new deed is required. In a refi it’s very rare for a lender to say oh by the way there’s a Quit Claim Deed in there. As in never.
I charge per package based on miles and drive time. I don’t charge based on number of times I use my stamp. That’s how I choose to quote. People are under the impression there’s a totally right way and a totally wrong way. In my region if I accepted a package and then reviewed documents and advised the service my fee is going to double based on a QC being included I’d be replaced. That’s the reality.
You’re right, it is not always evident and there is always exceptions to every rule. At this point I have only seen this lender through this one signing service. It is a decision I will make not to entertain a refi offer from them unless I can get more information about the signing first. I realize I will miss out on some signings because of that approach but I am ok with that. The fee has to work for my business model and if the time it takes and the cost associated for me of working with this lender doesn’t yield itself to profitability, then I have to make the decision to not work with them. Excessive page counts are going to be something that each of us determines for our selves. 172 pages may not be excessive for the area you’re in or for the lenders you have worked with, but in my experiences where I live it is more than the usual refi package, including other VA loan packages I have done. The signing service told me that this lender is a “repeated offender” of excessive packages. Which means they knew and should have priced the order accordingly, but of course they didn’t. As I mentioned in a previous post they are not the worst by far. There is another lender that the refi package is 300 pages. The purpose of the post is to hear what other signing agents around the country where seeing with the lenders they work with, not to validate my experiences locally. I will say the page count doesn’t matter as much if the fee is indicative of the time and cost it will take to complete the signing. With printing, organizing, scanning, dropping, drive time, and the time spent at the table this order took over 5 hours to complete. Along with the frustration the borrower had and was exhibiting at the signing it didn’t make it worth it to me. For perspective in my area refi fees offered are from $80 to $100. At that price point the more complicated or time consuming the signing is, it eats away at your profit margin and you have to determine if it is worth it. Not to mention this Lender had a specific Fed-Ex envelope requirement which I didn’t have, so I had to go to the Fed Ex service center since none of the local ship sites had any. That added an hour plus about 40 miles of driving.
Set up a FedEx account and order your own supplies.
When I was taking jobs from Notaroo there was a Reverse Mortgage company that demanded returns via the box. When I decided I was no longer doing any net 90 business I took the unused boxes back to the FedEx Center and they took them back with no problem.
And you’re absolutely right people have to do their own calculations to determine where they make money.
Correct. I have never been told by title that there is a QC involved and the time is 5 minutes or less here. It is a signed and notarize acknowledgement. The QC isn’t the issue or what made the package more time consuming or costly. Some of that was the repetitive documents, that weren’t just ones that needed to be signed. Each of us has to determine if we get an order and it is not what we were expecting, whether or not we can work with that service or lender in the future if the pay isn’t commiserate with the cost and time it takes to complete the signing. I completed the signing and they did give a small bump for the printing, but for me it was not as profitable as I needed or thought it would be when I accepted the offer. Going forward I have made the decision that if at all possible, I will avoid working with this lender. That is a business decision that I have made and certainly doesn’t apply to everybody else’s business model.
I have since ordered these to keep on hand just in case. it was a legal poly bag and honestly that is the only lender that uses legal and letter in there packages that I have dealt with here. Every other order regardless of what type of package it is has been straight letter. So I didn’t keep legal on hand. Of course I wasn’t thinking it would be so hard to find legal envelopes locally either. I keep UPS and Fed-Ex paperboard envelopes on had but not the poly, until now.
@takenotenotaryservices Excellent Plan of Action!
It definitively clear that your perspective is that of a Business Owner. Congratulations!
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