Professional Signing Agent/Notary Union?

Good Friday Fellow Notaries!
I have been thinking about starting a national notary/signing agent union for years, I am thinking that now might just be the perfect time to start that ball rolling! I am normally opposed to unions, but I believe that we are as an industry being treated very poorly by most and out right disrespected by many. In the last 14 years our cost of doing business has increased drastically and the fees being offered have decreased rapidly. The balance even 5 years ago was about 70% of companies offered decent fair fees, while 30% offered low ball fees to get their feet in the door, that balance is in my opinion 10% fair 90% unfair at this point.

I want to know if any of you reading this would be willing to participate in forming the union or at least contributing your thoughts on the subject.

Goals:
1.) Create a fair compensation model to make sure that after expenses we are able to remain profitable and in business. Per page, per notary act, per mile, per scans, per rushed order etc.

2.) Create or work with platforms to remove the need to be tied to our phones 24/7 just to stay productive and profitable

3.) A collective voice that can’t be ignored by signing agencies and or title companies.

4.) Well trained and tested members, make sure we are the best of the best and open our membership up to anyone willing to actually be a professional in a world full of less than professional people.

What would you add to this list?
Would you join a union if a small fee was involved monthly?
How could we make sure that members aren’t taking orders that don’t meet or exceed our collective expectations?

You won’t hurt my feelings, please feel free to critique the idea.
Dustin

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“1.) Create a fair compensation model to make sure that after expenses we are able to remain profitable and in business. Per page, per notary act, per mile, per scans, per rushed order etc.”

This you will not be able to do as each individual state sets the fee the notary can charge.

Other than that…you’re talking about starting more of a network or Association - not a union. And I, personally - no, I would not pay to join a union of a dying industry -with RON coming in your traditional notaries are going to be a thing of the past.

JMO

And, correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t you run a signing service?

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I wouldn’t join a union for notaries if it were free.

Linda,

I understand each state is different but most would allow for a base fee as per state law and I think that even if we just billed per act per state law we would all make more per order than current practice, add a travel fee per mile door to door and we could all potentially have enough margin to survive on. RON is even better in most states as it allows for a greater fee, Oregon for example is $10 per act for paper and $25 per act for RON.

And yes I agree on the idea of a Network or Association vs “UNION”, I just know we already have various associations but as far as I know they do not do much as far as protecting their members from unfair compensation.

And you might be wrong, my business name is deceiving as it says NW Notary Professionals as I had planned on building an agency but I quickly realized I did not want to manage anyone other than myself. I am a one man notary, no team or agency…if that is what you mean by Signing Service?

(CA) Well, it’s finally come to this - unionization. After reading and writing on this forum for over a year and watching the notary industry change before my (our?) very eyes, I’m left wondering how anyone can come to the conclusion that unionizing offers a solution to the real and perceived problems we face as notaries.

Among the issues that appear unresolvable are, as has been stated by LindaH-FL, the proliferation RON along with the widely and wildly variables of state laws that govern what we do. Moreover, the notary profession as we now know it will change dramatically in the next three (tumultuous) years ahead. Automation of the notarization process will supplant the work most of us do. Identification alone will become a problem as individuals elect to change gender, national origin, biological certainty and even race. The notary industry hasn’t even begun as far as I know, to grapple with this dopey-yet-real stuff that’s occurring now. And that, as an abstract, is just for starters.

You’re gonna tell me that union leadership will resolve these issues:

  1. standardization (or regulation) of fees
  2. means to handle violations of any laws, rules, regulations
  3. centralized training and continuing education
  4. regional issues (weather, terrain, transportation)
  5. fuel costs, non-payment of fees, slow pays, sub-standard work product
  6. uniformity among title/lender/escrow companies to conform to “union” standards
  7. organized work stoppages
  8. union dues (paid to whom and for what?)
  9. inevitable politicization of the union (yeah, that WILL happen)
  10. representation for each “local”; shop steward elections, turnover
  11. infiltration by criminal organizations (yeah, that’ll happen, too)
  12. loss of notary independence (coercion to join the union)
  13. lack of ability to enforce anything
  14. benefits packages administered by who - a central authority of some sort?

Need I go on? Look, notaries’ working conditions change with every assignment we accept so there’s no way to improve on that. We can’t strike for better wages. We can’t complain about our working hours.

There are over 100,000 notaries in the USA I’m told. No three of them can agree on almost anything if what I’ve read on this forum is any indicator. Who in the world is gonna pull all those folks together, get 'em to agree on anything and then represent them to - who? - the title companies??? As our adversary???

GMAFB

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Bobby,
I am seeing a trend in the responses, and that is exactly what I was looking for. Maybe union is the wrong word and an association is the right one? What I am looking to do is protect our industry from destruction, the existing associations are not doing this as best as I can tell. RON will no doubt change the industry and COVID ignited that push. We need a collective voice and while this forum or others like it are a nice place to vent, venting doesn’t actually change things.

Maybe it is best if we approach this from a legislative prospective and fight it legally. I don’t know the solution and it is obviously a hot topic, that is why I wanted to get the ball rolling to have an open discussion with my peers.

Could we collectively get an existing association to fight for us?

Do we need to approach this on state by state basis and involve our legislators to keep our industry alive?

Collectively we are probably a pretty strong professional group, we just need to figure out how to come together to create real change.

A platform similar to SD could do this with the right backbone. What if the order was placed and it had to include: Page Count, Location, Number of Signers, Number of Notary Acts, Type Of Closing, Special Requests etc…

Then a base fee was offered based on that data:
Page Count multiplied by $.XX per page
Miles multiplied by $.XX
Number of signers multiply everything by X%
Number of notary acts multiplied by state allowed amount
ETC ETC…

If someone elects to take base, let them do so and if it gets bid up so be it.

Your Thoughts?

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Both Florida and California each have more than that.

You’re not going to standardize fees when states all regulate them so differently (some allow a travel fee, some don’t, some limit it…some are fees per signature, some are per act, some require bonds & E&O, some don’t).

As for regulating and controlling non-payment issues…easy peasy - notary get paid at table by signers/sellers/borrowers when done - marked on CD as “POC”…

JMO

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Absolutely, I agree with all of what you said. Notaries don’t seem to have any protection and are many times disrespected and spoken to without respect as well.

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Im in. So many thoughts running through my mind, and may need a different title other than Union as “union” scares people, however…we do need to buimd some kind of national foundation so that states can build off of it, in our favor. Count me in and please direct message me.

(CA) I’ll respond to your points in the order you have written them.

  1. Legislative approach. I live in the dumbest state in the West, California. Liberal to the MAX. If any change to notary work gets into a legislative bill, it must contain provisions for global warming, trans rights, no bail and money for the bullet train. Our legislature obviously has bigger fish to fry so no help there.
  2. Association to “fight for us”. If the NNA ain’t gonna do it (and, frankly, why should they?) forming a new association is the next alternative. By the time a new association gets formed and is functionally operational, notary work done by humans will be a thing of the past. If the legislature does anything (in California, anyway), it’ll be to force some dopey automated method for doing notary work down our collective throats. Any guesses why the legislature kind of “tabled” RON in this state earlier this month? Something bigger and quite different is headed our way, just wait and see.
  3. Piecemeal counts of work being performed. We could do that now. Just think how excited and willing the title/escrow/lenders will feel towards that. It’s an unenforceable accounting nightmare. Who’s got the time to figure all that out?

Look, for the foreseeable [short] future, refinances (the bread and butter of notary work we’re really talking about here) is over and done with. There are virtually NO refi’s coming across. I live in a densely populated region and all I’m seeing is buys and sells from the real estate industry. And, GNW doesn’t fit the mold you’re talking about, so that’s out.

I’m really at a loss for figuring out what will really be accomplished by organizing. With so many notaries, spread across 50 states, all with widely differing agendas, business plans, full-time/part-time issues, communications challenges and on and on, I don’t think the juice is worth the squeeze.

I’ll close with this: notary work is, in the current environment, a part-time gig. Of course there are some, maybe even many, that can scratch out a full time income from this line of work. The vast majority, not so much, no? So the leverage and power that an association needs to forge wholesale industry change is just not there. And where would the leadership come from? I’m not likely to vote for a notary I never heard of or met who lives in Kansas and hasn’t a clue about my issues (and doesn’t want to hear them, either) to represent me. Nah, everything is way too de-centralized to make any real progress and the day is fast approaching where it won’t make any difference anyway. Government and the title companies will see to that.

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Union is a good idea however it may be better to start small in a specific state or a region of counties.

Why doesn’t the NNA protect the signing agents profit margins?

Why do other real estate pros like appraisers and realtors get more protections from their associations?

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Ask a real estate agent if they feel they were protected by their association when it came to the MLS being usurped by Zillow.

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How did that affect their 3% commission?

(CA) What? Who gets a 3% commission anymore? Zillow, Ideal Agent and Redfin, just for starters, upset that applecart. Zillow now controls how listings are advertised and promoted, Ideal Agent has dopey ads on TV offering "excellent, excellent service for as little as 2%", and Redfin gouges their agents on the fee for a “guaranteed” commission. The entire industry suffers when the so-called “low-cost” feeders jump in. That’s just the way it is. All industries do it. The trick is for the hard working agent, notary, salesperson - whatever, to be creative and innovative and make their living honestly and quit complaining about conditions they cannot meaningfully control or influence.

Improvise, Adapt, Overcome.

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Associations have done little to protect other industries. State laws protect the consumer from some professions, like real estate, but in my 37 years as a real estate broker, and having been quite active in various boards, I am not sure what the Realtor assiciation does anymore. Same with nurses and even musicians. My son is a musicians union member and he gets jobs there, but dont think that will work for notaries. We already have NNA where there is training and tests needed. Some assignment companies go there or require that membership, but there is little else compelling them from hiring anyone with a state license. Setting fees may be considered price fixing.

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I know that, as notaries, we are licensed by each state and they set our fees. But there are a lot of other professions that are also licensed by states, yet they have no say on their fees; doctors, lawyers, realtors, etc. Does anyone know the true rationalization on why we cannot set our own fees since ultimately we are running our own business?

YES, to Notaries NEED a UNION, I suggested a UNION back in June . Who did respond at that time said NOT a GOOD IDEA.

Notaries should be given 3 hours for copy, prep and drive time on all large volume assignments.
There should be a standard that all Banks, Title Companies, Real Estate, and Debt Consolidation companies to follow in making appointments for Notaries. Standardizing forms would be a great idea for non government documents. A Union could help with that.

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Unionize?? For what purpose? They won’t need us anymore. A union will be too little and too late.

It is my prediction that before too long, notarizations will be done at a kiosk where identity authentications will be made electronically (retina scans or handprint verifications) and documents will be slipped into an ATM-like machine or other device and a remote (artificial intelligence) “notary” will perform the work that we now do in a “live” setting. There will be a uniform, one-signature-for-all signing procedure so that all the various ancillary documents currently presented will be done all at once. Fees will be reduced to almost nothing and will be collected and distributed between title-escrow-lender electronically after debiting the signers’ debit card. Just tap and go. No signing services, no mobile notaries, no muss, no fuss, no mistakes. When the “signing session” is complete, the kiosk automatically transmits the appropriate documents to the intended end-points, thus eliminating FedEx and UPS costs and delays. Cyber-security routines will be in place and everything will reside in the cloud.

The so-called journaling will be captured automatically when the signer inserts their driver’s license or universal identity card (COVID passport anyone?) and the signers’ photos will be snapped by a remote camera. Copies of signed and notarized documents will be machine-certified and transmitted to the signers’ pre-designated computer or phone. No more hard copy duplication, thus saving trees, ink and time. Green New Deal thinking at work.

All the states can decide to have uniform laws, forms and procedures or not. They can virtually eliminate notary certification departments, testing of applicants, handling of renewals, taking action on problematic notaries, etc.

Hmmm, I think I’ll build one of these kiosks in my garage and corner the market.

Does anyone see a different scenario? I’d love to see some feedback.

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Concur :100: percent @Bobby-CA

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The long-term perspective on this issue has held a strong future potential reality since the onset of the Remote Online Notarization [RON] “dream” that has gradually been coming into focus [COVID-era] and that subsequently became a REALITY.

It appears that the final step to completely eliminate the in-person certified notary signing agent [CNSA] professionals/notaries is to have ALL counties across the US implement electronic filing processes . . .

For a few years now, there has been a decreasing need for in-person CNSA professionals/notaries who were “progressing” into the same category as dinosaurs => Extinct Species. All one has to do is read the threads on the Notary Cafe forum over the past 2 years to witness the stark decrease of available business . . .

Anyone with their eyes wide open while reviewing this industry in this business sector could easily forecast that “technology” would be the death knell for this in-person service.

Currently, it’s only “training” services that are hawking their wares & touting $100K income streams that still “BELIEVE” in this industry. Unfortunately, this is NO LONGER a reality for most regions of the US. One of the only ways that one could currently achieve that level of income would be to own & operate a signing service along with being a CNSA . . .

Of course, to each their own. I always advocate performing your own due diligence PRIOR to investing in any business to determine the quality, viability, and long-term outlook.

:swan:

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